I Still Prefer Windows 10

pparks1 · Aug 15, 2023

Ghot said:
Only if you didn't use backup software.
I ran XP for 12 years straight... never had to reinstall once.

Norton Ghost 2003.

Back in those days, I didn't use system images much. I had backups of my data that I could restore after I reinstalled.

I might be exaggerating the every 6 months, but it seems like it was pretty frequent for reinstalling to get all the system performance back. Those problems were mostly alleviated in Windows 7 and I got years out of that. Windows 10 has been the same for me. My sons box is going on nearly 4 years and my desktop is nearly 3 years without a single reinstall or a restore from a backup image.

Ghot · Aug 15, 2023

pparks1 said:
Back in those days, I didn't use system images much. I had backups of my data that I could restore after I reinstalled.

I might be exaggerating the every 6 months, but it seems like it was pretty frequent for reinstalling to get all the system performance back. Those problems were mostly alleviated in Windows 7 and I got years out of that. Windows 10 has been the same for me. My sons box is going on nearly 4 years and my desktop is nearly 3 years without a single reinstall or a restore from a backup image.

I use the restores as a tool. I use them for testing a lot of things.
Many folk post problems with programs, that I don't use, so I DL and install them and see what's what.
Then instead of uninstalling and leaving dust bunnies... I just do a restore.

I keep the total data on my Windows drive down to about 30GB, so backups and restores are very fast.

Scannerman · Aug 15, 2023

Stigg said:
I've always been an early adopter of new Windows operating systems and very adaptive to change, but Windows 11 offers me nothing.
Windows 11 is the first Microsoft operating system that takes more than it gives.

That's why all my computers except one are staying with Windows 10 for now.

What do you think?

Stay calm, guys. I know most of you love Windows 11. I don't agree, but it's just a healthy debate.

↑ THIS SIDE UP — * Original Post *
We were asked our opinions. Most of us here by now should know what opinions are like aside from the fact that everyone has one. So we are having a discussion and perhaps a "healthy debate".

Someone mentioned that they had to continuously re-install Win XP every six months. I find that surprising. Win XP rarely ever had to be reinstalled on my PC (or others I built) and I am moved to say that I'm inclined to Win XP, which was once known as the most stable OS Microsoft ever released. Despite the reputation for stability I still prefer Win 7 Ultimate 64 bit due to the rich supply of tools and analytical software that came with it and it is still my favourite Operating System despite the requirement of having to use drivers supplied directly from the manufacturer for much of the hardware. Probably just as well considering how much trouble generic drivers (compliments of Windows) frequently generates.

I truly do wish Win 11 would run more smoothly on my work station and I wish it were more compliant with Intel's Gen 6 CPUs. But it isn't and Win 10 is so deplorable that I can't use it in good conscience on any serious platform. I also understand why GHOT and many others still prefer Win XP and I think many here remember the nightmare generated by the abomination that followed it: VISTA. The argument that if I don't like so many features about Windows 10 that I can simply opt for surgery doesn't wash with me. There is just too much wrong with Windows 10 to have to cut out all this needless bloatware. This is why I recommended a simple bare-bones framework option for serious Windows users.

I accept that some people enjoy the idea that Microsoft is recording their every key stroke. I'm sure there are some who are 100% in love with Cortana. I'm guessing there are even some who are thrilled at Microsoft's tenacity at replacing the very things that were deliberately removed from their OS with a single update so that their favourite spyware, bloatware, adware, scare ware, any ware, I don't care, is fully restored. I am not one of those people. When I remove something from my PC I want it to stay that way unless I specifically and deliberately make a manual effort to go back and get it from Microsoft. Evidently, Windows 7 spoiled me. I expect this sort of performance and better now and I've not seen it since.

I'm really trying to work with Windows 11 here. No, really I am. I'm even typing this on Win 11, but until they can provide a way for me to remove these yellow triangles from my device manager and stop making so many of the applications run so choppy on an Intel Gen 6 CPU I really can't call it my favourite OS. Why on earth Windows would release an OS that would only work with PCs that were three years old or less (at the time of release) is beyond me — except perhaps this was the will of the Consortium. Not everyone has thousands of dollars of disposable income simply to get compliant with TMP2. This tactic is little more than a push for profit.

pparks1 · Aug 15, 2023

Ghot said:
I use the restores as a tool. I use them for testing a lot of things.
Many folk post problems with programs, that I don't use, so I DL and install them and see what's what.
Then instead of uninstalling and leaving dust bunnies... I just do a restore.

Makes total sense. I either use a virtual machine for that kind of thing, or my beelink mini pc. I've even gone as far as just running a test install of windows on a .vhdx file and playing in their so as not to mess up my default machine. I try to keep that one for just what I could call "prod" changes at home.

pparks1 · Aug 15, 2023

Scannerman said:
Someone mentioned that they had to continuously re-install Win XP every six months. I find that surprising. Win XP rarely ever had to be reinstalled on my PC (or others I built) and I am moved to say that I'm inclined to Win XP, which was once known as the most stable OS Microsoft ever released

Yes, that was me. Windows XP didn't start out perfectly stable out of the box, it took some SP releases to get it there. I also played around back in those days with software from shady places, etc....none of which I touch anymore.

Scannerman said:
I truly do wish Win 11 would run more smoothly on my work station and I wish it were more compliant with Intel's Gen 6 CPUs. But it isn't and Win 10 is so deplorable that I can't use it in good conscience on any serious platform.

I too really liked 7. And I've had great luck with 10. At my house, I have 4 gaming desktops for every member of the family and we are all still using Windows 10 because it's been rock solid and stable for us. No urgency to upgrade to 11, as it doesn't provide anything we really need and 10 is still completely supported.

I have 11 on my beelink mini-pc (8th gen core i5) and have been using it since 11 came out. And work upgraded my Windows 10 laptop (10th gen Core i9) to Windows 11, and it's been working just fine.

Scannerman said:
I also understand why GHOT and many others still prefer Win XP and I think many here remember the nightmare generated by the abomination that followed it: VISTA.

Vista was pretty crappy, no doubt about that. Windows 8 wasn't great either.

Scannerman said:
When I remove something from my PC I want it to stay that way unless I specifically and deliberately make a manual effort to go back and get it from Microsoft. Evidently, Windows 7 spoiled me. I expect this sort of performance and better now and I've not seen it since.

I've gotten to the point where I expect with software, security, advertising, etc....that some things are just not always gonna be perfect for me. It's the same with Apple MacOS. Some things I like, some things I don't. And part of the reason I have both Mac's and PC's. There are things like Microsoft Edge that I don't use, no interest at all in it. It's not bothersome enough for me to want to uninstall it and get rid of it. But I just don't ever click on the icon and launch it myself.

Scannerman said:
Why on earth Windows would release an OS that would only work with PCs that were three years old or less (at the time of release) is beyond me — except perhaps this was the will of the Consortium. Not everyone has thousands of dollars of disposable income simply to get compliant with TMP2. This tactic is little more than a push for profit.

The intention was upcoming new security features I believe that would utilize this functionality. Not sure any of them are really actively used yet. Was happy to still have years of support for Windows 10 when 11 came out. I've run Windows 11 on my 5th gen core i5 Intel Nuc's without any real problems. I however did spend about $500 on a Beelink mini-pc with an 8th gen Core i5 that just performs a whole lot better than my older Nuc's. For me, it was well worth the investment.

Scannerman · Aug 15, 2023

pparks1 said:
The intention was upcoming new security features I believe that would utilize this functionality. Not sure any of them are really actively used yet. Was happy to still have years of support for Windows 10 when 11 came out. I've run Windows 11 on my 5th gen core i5 Intel Nuc's without any real problems. I however did spend about $500 on a Beelink mini-pc with an 8th gen Core i5 that just performs a whole lot better than my older Nuc's. For me, it was well worth the investment.

Win 11 doesn't support IRST. It works with software that uses the term "IRST" lumped in with Optane, which Intel already stated is EOL. The sorry excuse for software provided by Intel isn't anything like the real IRST used in Win 7, 8, 8.1, and 10. I know this because I have it. Win 11 doesn't support TBMT (Turbo boast Maximum Technology 3.0) which is hard wired to Intel's 6900K Gen 6 chip so I'm stuck with a yellow triangle there. The requirement for the driver cannot be removed even if I don't use it. Disabling it in the UEFI/BIOS does nothing.

pparks1 said:
Vista was pretty crappy, no doubt about that. Windows 8 wasn't great either.

Win 7 pretty much justified the trials and tribulations we suffered from being Vista users. Something actually beautiful came out of that mess. Not so with Windows 8. IMO anything following Win 7 isn't that great. 8.1 (should have been called Windows 9) wasn't half bad either, but it was little more than half good. 10 comes with a built in key logger, crapware and bloatware nobody needs, and caters to kids strung out on shooter games. Cortana just isn't my thing. If I have to butcher an OS just to get it working to my satisfaction I really should be using a different OS. No great wonder Windows 10 was offered as a "free" upgrade. Free advertising, free adware, free bloatware, free key logger, etc. etc. Yup. Rock solid and hard to get rid off too if you believe in Windows updates.

I suppose I am seeking a level of Professionalism that doesn't exist anymore. I'm willing to pay for it but it ain't there. It was there with Windows 7 but methinks those days are long gone. I was really hoping Windows 11 would provide this and it almost did. I'm glad it worked out for you and your Gen 9 and 10 chips. For me, to replace my work station for Windows 11 and TPM2 would easily cost me over 10 thousand dollars I don't have.

pparks1 · Aug 15, 2023

Scannerman said:
. For me, to replace my work station for Windows 11 and TPM2 would easily cost me over 10 thousand dollars I don't have.

Yikes must have a pretty elaborate machine.

Dru2 · Aug 15, 2023

Scannerman said:
For me, to replace my work station for Windows 11 and TPM2 would easily cost me over 10 thousand dollars I don't have.

I'd certainly like to know how a TPM module for your board would cost 10K?

BTW, I actually liked Vista and had zero issues making me want to revert back to XP. I did however do a new build around it

Also had Windows Millenium (ME)....

Scannerman · Aug 15, 2023

Dru2 said:
I'd certainly like to know how a TPM module for your board would cost 10K?

BTW, I actually liked Vista and had zero issues making me want to revert back to XP. I did however do a new build around it

Also had Windows Millenium (ME)....

I had Win ME too. Got more BSODs with Mistake Edition than any OS by MS I've ever used. It certainly was a learning experience for me. In fact, ME was the first OS license I ever paid for. Before that I used 95 hand me downs and my Boss's Win 98.

It's not what the board would cost but to find a system board comparable I'd likely be looking at around 2K. This board grants me 40 lanes of PCIe with the right CPU. Then there's system memory, which indubitably, would be DDR5. Offhand I really couldn't tell you how much 128 GB of DDR5 RAM would cost, but it certainly wouldn't be cheap. It likely wouldn't be B-Die either and I rather doubt that I could get CAS latencies comparable to what I'm getting on this Dominator RAM despite the higher frequencies. When it comes to RAM latency is just as important as frequency.

I wouldn't have to simply buy a module. I would have to buy a replacement board because my board uses TPM1.2 and that's just not good enough. Then there are the matter of drives. Yes, I could just cannibalize my current work station but I had already stated what REPLACEMENT would cost me. Normally this unit runs max drives. Yup. That's right. All 26 letters of the alphabet are claimed. Currently I'm back in the process of rebuilding it due to a foolish mistake: I trusted Microsoft to write only to the drives the Microsoft recovery software stated it would write to. Instead of writing over drives C and D it decided to write over two thirds of my hard drives, including multiple backups. It was the greatest 'Catastrophic System Failure' I've ever experienced compliments of Microsoft. And yes, it's my fault because I was trying to recover my Windows 8.1 which was already EOL with my Windows 8.1 recovery disc.

This leads me to my LSI/BROADCOM/AVAGO arrays, which, thanks to the wisdom of LSI, paid no attention to the MS BS and were left intact. TBH I don't even know if I could run those specific cards on PCIe 4.0 without issue. Of course, I wouldn't be buying any Optane NVMe anymore. I would have to get something like Samsung or perhaps some quality WD Black like the SN770 modules which are a bit slower but less costly. Since we're talking about replacement, aside from the cards, breakout cables, the drives, Noctua cooler, fans, a 1 KW PSU (Platinum standard), and graphics card, I'd also need a case comparable to what I use which isn't made anymore. I don't even know if anything like that exists anymore. I've seen cases that match it in size (not many of those) but none that give me the airflow I need or the front bay space I need for all those peripherals that I actually use. I run two internal cages in the front that can be locked with a key. I have additional RAID inside. The case also uses 5 sleds which is very handy for repair work.

My PC isn't a simple gaming rig. It's a work station. I repair computers with it. I network with it. I make videos with it. I write books with it. I also use it for social networking (like this forum for example), emails, and standard use. It even functions as a family server. So now do the math. This unit has hardware in it I haven't even mentioned yet but I don't have to. I'm already looking @ 10K replacement for what I've listed here. I trust this answers your question.

pparks1 · Aug 15, 2023

Scannerman said:
Offhand I really couldn't tell you how much 128 GB of DDR5 RAM would cost, but it certainly wouldn't be cheap

What do you do that requires that much RAM?

antspants · Aug 15, 2023

pparks1 said:
What do you do that requires that much RAM?

I’d use it for video editing.

Flashorn · Aug 16, 2023

Stigg said:
I've always been an early adopter of new Windows operating systems and very adaptive to change, but Windows 11 offers me nothing.
Windows 11 is the first Microsoft operating system that takes more than it gives.

That's why all my computers except one are staying with Windows 10 for now.

What do you think?

Stay calm, guys. I know most of you love Windows 11. I don't agree, but it's just a healthy debate.

I'm kinda with you on this. My preferred OS would absolutely be 7 Ultimate but,
I guess having to fight infections is not my idea of fun anymore.
I kept (and still have it on a notebook) 7 and skipped 8 , 8.1 and jumped in to
Windows 10 when I bought my GT73 Titan, Boy, what a change. Didn't like it
at the time but now, it has kinda grown on me. Windows 11 is a work in progress
and we are all only BETA testers. I didn't sign up for this duty. Should have downgraded
W11 on this notebook to 10 when I got it last year. Live and Learn.

Flashorn · Aug 16, 2023

pparks1 said:
What do you do that requires that much RAM?

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pparks1 · Aug 16, 2023

Flashorn said:
Kingston Fury Renegade Pro 128GB (4 x 32GB) ECC Registered DDR5 4800 (PC5 38400) Memory (Server Memory) Model KF548R36RBK4-128 - Newegg.com

Buy Kingston Fury Renegade Pro 128GB (4 x 32GB) ECC Registered DDR5 4800 (PC5 38400) Memory (Server Memory) Model KF548R36RBK4-128 with fast shipping and top-rated customer service. Once you know, you Newegg!

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i know what RAM is, but what do you do that requires that much? I have a datawarehouse server at work with 6TB of RAM. Takes nearly 30 minutes to boot to get through the POST proces.

Scannerman · Aug 16, 2023

pparks1 said:
What do you do that requires that much RAM?

If you read the entire post you might discover what I do with it. :winkt:

Admittedly, I've only run 77% of it at once outside of a bench test, but I could see how it would be possible to use more. Back in 2018 I thought I'd try running a RAM DISK. It was okay, but as household needs increased and word got out that I knew how to recover data from problematic drives and drives that were accidentally formatted, I found better uses for it. That much RAM really comes in handy for running Intensive VS scans on PCs over a family network. That much RAM comes in handy when one of my daughter's is watching a video in the reading room while another one is playing her Mine Craft with her other sister in the basement on a home server while I'm busy editing a home video. That much RAM has endless possibilities and I'm a man who likes his options.

I remember back in 2007 people thought it was insane to have 4GB of RAM. A good short answer would be that I "future proofed" my PC. Another good use for a generous amount of RAM is VMs but VMs aren't the only RAM hungry programs. Anyway, I'll leave it at that for now. I've never regretted getting this much RAM.

Scannerman · Aug 16, 2023

pparks1 said:
i know what RAM is, but what do you do that requires that much? I have a datawarehouse server at work with 6TB of RAM. Takes nearly 30 minutes to boot to get through the POST proces.

This is awesome to learn! I've been asking a question here in the forum about LSI RAID cards in IR mode and IT mode and haven't been getting any answers. Perhaps you can help!

IT mode and IR mode?

I tried this on a different thread but nobody responded. I'm thinking perhaps it was because I didn't use the correct terminology. Amazon sells raid cards advertised as "unRAID IT" but essentially they're raid cards that have been flashed to IT mode, meaning you can't use them for RAID anymore...

www.elevenforum.com

JAM83 · Aug 16, 2023

Ghot said:
All these different opinions even though everyone knows XP was the best.
All that needed done was to convert it to 64 bit, completely.

View attachment 67880

100% agree! I loved XP

Scannerman · Aug 16, 2023

JAM83 said:
100% agree! I loved XP

Naaaw Win XP was great but Win 7 was the best coz it had all the tools!

JAM83 · Aug 16, 2023

Scannerman said:
Naaaw Win XP was great but Win 7 was the best coz it had all the tools!

Windows 1.0 was the best ever. . lmao

Ghot · Aug 16, 2023

I just looked through my old motherboard boxes... found my original XP disc.

I also have a Win 98 SE disc... somewhere.

I Still Prefer Windows 10

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