Solved Finding the right laptop

Hazel123 said:

Thanks. I was reading something about that on Reddit. Comments were that upgrading the ram actually slowed it down due to the dual channel business and better option was to get one with larger soldered ram (which would be out of my price bracket).

I'd be ok with 8gb ram but wonder - if the soldered ram died, would adding a stick in the second slot work? Assume it would then only be single channel ram.

Click to expand...

If you mix RAM modules with different clock speed specifications the memory controller will always read the SPD information of each channel, and configure the memory bus to run at the speed of the slowest module. In that sense, dual channel memory would work out to be slower than using one stick.

However when you buy new RAM, if you choose a module that match the timings of your existing installed RAM (the onboard soldered RAM), then there should be no performance hit, because the memory controller can configure the memory bus at the same speed as both RAM modules.

If the soldered ram died, would adding a stick in the second slot work? Interesting question . I have not seen this problem so I am making an educated guess based on my understanding of PC RAM. There could be more than one answer depending on if i) the soldered RAM was undetected by UEFI at POST, or whether ii) the soldered RAM was detected by UEFI at POST but exhibited faulty memory cells when the OS launches and tries to use them.

ii) If the RAM in question is detected by UEFI and has faulty memory cells, then the computer would BSOD, as this faulty RAM would always be configured for use - you would need replace the motherboard to repair.

It may be possible to put jumpers on the motherboard, to enable/disable the RAM channels. Then you would have a robust way of selecting which channels you want to power up into the computer configuration. But I have not heard of any manufacturer doing that on their mobos.

i) If the RAM in question is undetected by the memory controller, then there is a chance it will just detect the SPD of the SODIMM RAM, and configure that RAM for use by the computer. So, you could get away with it for years and years.
On the other hand, some memory controllers like to detect RAM in channel 1, before attempting to detect the RAM in channel 2. My current motherboard is like that, so I have reservations that other motherboards would do the same. It is not guaranteed to work.

Terminology
RAM - Random access memory
SPD - Serial presence detect
UEFI - Unified Extensible Firmware Interface
POST - Power-on self-test
OS - Operating system
BSOD - Blue (or Black) Screen of Death
SODIMM - Small outline dual in-line memory module

Hazel123 said:

...the problem I’m finding is most 13” or 14” laptops now are too thin. Some of them look fantastic but not that easy to type on...

Don’t want a desktop - I’m a laptop user. I usually buy used ones for economic reasons but started looking at new ones just to try a d find something that is good for typing as a priority.

Click to expand...

I'm a 'desktop-free' zone too and like you I prefer used ones, not so much for economic reasons, more so that I can afford (a lot) more than one of them

My preferred keyboard is that used in the Dell Lattitude range. If you want a separate numeric keypad then you'll have to step up to a 15" laptop.

My most recent addition is a Dell Lattude 5410, a 14" laptop. The keys have a nice travel and physical click to them. That they are also backlit is a bonus. Also it's not as thin as some and has a substantial weighty feel to it.

Read some reviews, NotebookCheck are quite good at assessing the feel of the keyboards. Read some of their reviews of various brands and models, here's their one for mine.

The keyboard doesn't quite have the full width of a full-size keyboard, which can be recognized by the rather narrow Enter key, among other things. Nevertheless, the keyboard works quite well, because the keys of the mainly used keypad area all have normal sizes. In addition, the arrangement of the arrow keys, for example, is also very pleasant.

The typing experience provided by the backlit keyboard is at a high level. The travel of the chiclet keys is deep (estimated at 1.8 mm), the keys have a pleasant, springy pressure point, and the keyboard isn't loud either. The Dell Latitude 14 5410 is definitely suitable for productivity tasks.

Click to expand...

Thanks. Yes that is my concern about soldered ram. I guess it’s all going the same way as cars . You used to be able to fix them yourself - now it needs specialist repair.

Thanks for the terminology too. I knew most of them but always wondered what Sodimm stood for .

I suspect the extra ram slot is just to increase ram and not an alternative to the soldered ram. I was thinking of the little Eee 900 netbooks which had two hard drives. The small 4gb one was soldered. The 8gb one was replaceable. The 4gb one with operating system and boot often used to fail but it was possible in bios to disable it and set the 8gb one to boot. That’s about the extent of my technical knowledge! Other than replacing ram and hard drives and other components.

Not the same as ram of course, especially if it’s part of the Motherboard. And computers are more sophisticated now.

Feeling a gripe coming on again. Apple’s fault ! They started this trend of non replaceable components. It’s one thing to live with a dead battery but another to have dead ram.

So I guess - being a bit old school - I like things to last a long time -it would be a bit hit and miss as to whether soldered ram would last 12 years. Only ever had one ram stick fail on me but …

Bree said:

I'm a 'desktop-free' zone too and like you I prefer used ones, not so much for economic reasons, more so that I can afford (a lot) more than one of them

My preferred keyboard is that used in the Dell Lattitude range. My most recent addition is a Dell Lattude 5410, a 14" laptop. The keys have a nice travel and physical click to them. That they are also backlit is a bonus. Also it's not as thin as some and has a substatial weighty feel to it.

Read some reviews, NotebookCheck are quite good at assessing the feel of the keyboards. Read some of their reviews of varios brands and models, here's their one for mine.

Dell Latitude 14 5410 laptop review: Restrained by missing AMD Ryzen option

Notebookcheck reviews the Dell Latitude 14 5410, a business laptop with a 14-inch display. A special feature of the Dell laptop is its particularly large battery. However, the Dell laptop's rather poor LCD was disappointing for us in the test.

www.notebookcheck.net

Click to expand...

Cheers. That is a good suggestion - they are expensive new but have seen a few used ones. Like the sound of the “not quite full width” keyboard - I prefer a slightly smaller keyboard (having been a netbook fan previously).

Looks good - has mouse buttons too. How do you find the front edge on wrists? I found the hard square metal edge unpleasant on the hp spectre - although could stick something over it I guess?

Yes that is another reason for buying used - to get a higher spec model than could afford new. It takes quite a bit of searching to find a good used one - especially if looking for 8th generation or higher processors.

Hazel123 said:

Had another thought after posting. Business laptops are usually more traditional and chunky (with exceptions). So maybe I should be looking at used Dell latitudes...

Click to expand...

I didn't read this until after I posted the above. Yes, it's a business-class machine every time for me.

Hazel123 said:

Cheers. That is a good suggestion - they are expensive new but have seen a few used ones. Like the sound of the “not quite full width” keyboard - I prefer a slightly smaller keyboard (having been a netbook fan previously).

Looks good - has mouse buttons too. How do you find the front edge on wrists? I found the hard square metal edge unpleasant on the hp spectre - although could stick something over it I guess?

Yes that is another reason for buying used - to get a higher spec model than could afford new. It takes quite a bit of searching to find a good used one - especially if looking for 8th generation or higher processors.

Click to expand...

Dell Laptops are Very good, I used one on my Job and it was trouble free. The one in the image is not that Pricey. ( I just realized that it has a i3 CPU-no wonder it is so low...) sorry.

Hazel123 said:

Looks good - has mouse buttons too. How do you find the front edge on wrists? I found the hard square metal edge unpleasant on the hp spectre - although could stick something over it I guess?

Click to expand...

I've only just got that one, so haven't used it much yet, but I find on all my other Latitudes (of varying vintage) that there's enough space below the keyboard for my wrist to find themselves naturally resting about an inch in from the edge of the palmrest. Another thing I like about Dell is the availability of full servicing manuals on their support site. So here's their page showing my keyboard and palmrest.

Oh, and checking their Service Manual for various of their PCs, the current Latitude 3*** and 5*** ranges seem to still have all their RAM as removable, while the Latitude 7*** range now has the first block of memory soldered in, with one slot for expansion.

Dell said:

Memory
8 GB, Non-ECC, Integrated

Click to expand...

Hazel123 said:

has mouse buttons too

Click to expand...

I have an Acer (System One below) that has no visible buttons. In actual fact it does, but they are hidden beneath the trackpad, you just press anywhere on the lower half of the left or right side of the trackpad to click them. They feel like and click like any normal separate button. Disconcerting at first, but easy to get used to.

Edit: I've just noticed that Dell Latitudes in the 5*20 range (intel 11th gen) have no buttons either, while the 5*10 range (Intel 10th gen) do. It actually makes sense to place a physical switch beneath a press-able touchpad rather than a dedicated separate button, you can make the touchpad larger and easier to use.

Hazel, I'm with you on the necessity of having a good keyboard. I learned touch typing in HS many decades ago and type around 100 WPM. I type at the stream of thought without thinking too much about individual keys/letters.

You can see my two computers below. Asus and Microsoft keyboards are some of the best in my opinion.

You can get last year's Surface models new at excellent prices on the Microsoft site now that the new models are out. I bought my Surface Pro 7 new on sale at a bargain $849 USD.

You might also consider the Surface laptops since you like to type on your lap. They also have outstanding keyboards.

Gary in Atlanta

Josey Wales said:

View attachment 9501

Dell Laptops are Very good, I used one on my Job and it was trouble free. The one in the image is not that Pricey. ( I just realized that it has a i3 CPU-no wonder it is so low...) sorry.

Click to expand...

No worries! It looks good. Good to hear so much positive stuff about Dell laptops - a lot of reviews of read of buyers who bought new, were cursing them over reliability. But I guess some new ones have glitches - at least they're under guarantee. Business laptops probably less prone to glitches from new as well.

TraderGary said:

Hazel, I'm with you on the necessity of having a good keyboard. I learned touch typing in HS many decades ago and type around 100 WPM. I type at the stream of thought without thinking too much about individual keys/letters.

You can see my two computers below. Asus and Microsoft keyboards are some of the best in my opinion.

You can get last year's Surface models new at excellent prices on the Microsoft site now that the new models are out. I bought my Surface Pro 7 new on sale at a bargain $849 USD.

You might also consider the Surface laptops since you like to type on your lap. They also have outstanding keyboards.

Gary in Atlanta

Click to expand...

Cheers. That's good to hear about Asus laptops for keyboards. The Vivobook 14 I mentioned above had very positive reviews about the keyboard. I am quite inclined towards it - other than me being fussy about not liking soldered ram. Surface laptops look amazing - they are still quite expensive used as well - but I have had a look.

So shortlist now:

Ruled out the expensive Asus Zephyrus due to uncertainty about what would happen if soldered ram failed.

Leaves me with

1) Looking at used Dell Latitudes
2) The Asus Vivobook 14 (also has soldered ram but cheaper)
3) Other used 14" laptops with 8th generation or higher.

What I'd really like is another Sony Vaio - the most ergononic laptop I ever used - fantastic keyboard, screen and nvidia graphics. Such a shame they stopped making them.

Ridiculous getting emotional about computers lol. But momentarily - my favourites. The Sony Vaio VPCC2s1E. Asus Eee 904HA (which was great to type on - but a bit slow). Asus Eee 701sd (Had a few of those until Windows 7 stopped being supported). Also strangely very easy to type on.

Hazel123 said:

What I'd really like is another Sony Vaio - the most ergononic laptop I ever used - fantastic keyboard, screen and nvidia graphics. Such a shame they stopped making them.

Click to expand...

I've always avoided the Sony Vaio. Not because there's anything wrong with them, more because the support pages seem short on drivers and service manuals. The Dell support site (and HP, come to that) on the other hand have manuals that tell you how to completely dismantle their machines. Good support is as important, if not more important that the specs of the machine IMHO.

Keep a look on Dell Outlet for refurbished Latitudes, not got any in UK at the moment but their stock often changes quickly.

clam1952 said:

not got any in UK at the moment

Click to expand...

Seems they do have some in stock, I found three Latitude 5410 that nearly meet the specs of mine around the £700-£755 + VAT mark. All with 16GB RAM, 512GB ssd and a 10th gen i5. (I got a used one with 32GB and an i7 for quite a bit less than that though).

Thanks. Yes support is important. Apparently the 5410 can have three variants of battery and the smaller battery leaves room for a 2.5 inch sata drive as well. As I have a good Samsung 1tb sata drive it would be good to be able to use it. I'll check out the link.

Hazel123 said:

Thanks. Yes that is my concern about soldered ram. I guess it’s all going the same way as cars :). You used to be able to fix them yourself - now it needs specialist repair.

Thanks for the terminology too. I knew most of them but always wondered what Sodimm stood for :).

I suspect the extra ram slot is just to increase ram and not an alternative to the soldered ram. I was thinking of the little Eee 900 netbooks which had two hard drives. The small 4gb one was soldered. The 8gb one was replaceable. The 4gb one with operating system and boot often used to fail but it was possible in bios to disable it and set the 8gb one to boot. That’s about the extent of my technical knowledge! Other than replacing ram and hard drives and other components.

Not the same as ram of course, especially if it’s part of the Motherboard. And computers are more sophisticated now.

Feeling a gripe coming on again. Apple’s fault ! They started this trend of non replaceable components. It’s one thing to live with a dead battery but another to have dead ram.

So I guess - being a bit old school - I like things to last a long time -it would be a bit hit and miss as to whether soldered ram would last 12 years. Only ever had one ram stick fail on me but …

Click to expand...

Yes, cars are getting more computerised and harder to repair with duct tape :) yourself. A lot of circuit boards use SMT (Surface Mount Technology) to solder the components, which is done by robots - not humans. Even the specialist repair guarantees do not last for long, as manufacturers say it cost too much to keep spare parts. This all affects our "Right to Repair" as consumers. "Right to Repair" laws have changed in UK because of Brexit, and things like smartphones and laptops are not covered as much as we would like. Laws in US and EU are a bit more pro-consumer, I believe. However, governments are being told by pressure groups to wise up because of global warming - "Right to Repair" reduces the carbon footprint, so is kinder on the planet. We have only got one planet, so things like "Right to Repair" may suddenly come back into fashion because of the Eco Crisis.

Talking of "Right to Repair", have you seen @A Guy 's post on Windows Q? Microsoft to Make Devices Easier to Repair, Bowing to Investor Pressure According to that article, Microsoft is bowing to pressure on "Right to Repair" with their Surface laptops, starting next year in 2022. Therefore, it could be that your best choice for an upgradable laptop would be the MS Surface ... in 2022!

My ASUS Vivobook 15 has been real good, a snappy little powerhouse!
Bought it last year for about 600 bucks.

iko22 said:

Yes, cars are getting more computerised and harder to repair with duct tape :) yourself. A lot of circuit boards use SMT (Surface Mount Technology) to solder the components, which is done by robots - not humans. Even the specialist repair guarantees do not last for long, as manufacturers say it cost too much to keep spare parts. This all affects our "Right to Repair" as consumers. "Right to Repair" laws have changed in UK because of Brexit, and things like smartphones and laptops are not covered as much as we would like. Laws in US and EU are a bit more pro-consumer, I believe. However, governments are being told by pressure groups to wise up because of global warming - "Right to Repair" reduces the carbon footprint, so is kinder on the planet. We have only got one planet, so things like "Right to Repair" may suddenly come back into fashion because of the Eco Crisis.

Talking of "Right to Repair", have you seen @A Guy 's post on Windows Q? Microsoft to Make Devices Easier to Repair, Bowing to Investor Pressure According to that article, Microsoft is bowing to pressure on "Right to Repair" with their Surface laptops, starting next year in 2022. Therefore, it could be that your best choice for an upgradable laptop would be the MS Surface ... in 2022!

Click to expand...

Thanks! Not sure the laptop hinges will last till 2022 lol. Screen half hanging off (wedged up by a book). Although I am typing on it now :). Yep what with brexit and the pandemic it's all change. But they really should be making things renewable, not disposable. I am sure they could still make thin laptops with removable ram.

Edwin said:

My ASUS Vivobook 15 has been real good, a snappy little powerhouse!
Bought it last year for about 600 bucks.

Click to expand...

Thanks - that's good to know. Yes the 14" one costs just a bit less than that. Between £500 and £560 depending which model. I like the look of it. It popped up as a good value budget laptop. Just thinking about whether or not I want soldered ram. Is it actually possible to resolder new ram if it failed? I've replaced laptop parts before but soldering is a bit ....