Solved Wrong info, wrong laptop, wrong OS!

lettersquash said:

But it's W10. Are you thinking of MS forcing everyone to upgrade? I noted Wynona said, "And, eventually, Windows 11 will probably be your only option. Just sayin'." However, I was anxious about Win7 being unsupported, but they're still installing the malicious software removal tool, so with some decent AV it's fine. Surely they can't force people to upgrade to 11 if their machines are going to take a performance hit? If so, it's definitely Linux time.

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Some of the more adventurous here are willing and able to install 11 on unsupported devices and are more than willing to tell you how to do so.

There is in fact little it won't run on, and provided you are comfortable with the risks then it should work well. I am currently running the latest Insider Beta build 22621.1 on a very old Lenovo Yoga 11e as a test machine. I repeat though, I do not recommend you do so if this is your only or main machine.

Bree said:

Some of the more adventurous here are willing and able to install 11 on unsupported devices. There is in fact little it won't run on, and provided you are comfortable with the risks then it should work well. I am currently running the latest Insider Beta build 22621.1 on a very old Lenovo Yoga 11e as a test machine. I repeat though, I do not recommend you do so if this is your only or main machine.

Windows 11 on devices that don't meet minimum system requirements - Microsoft Support

Installing Windows 11 on devices that do not meet minimum system requirements is unsupported and is not recommended by Microsoft.

support.microsoft.com

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I see. I don't imagine I particularly want or need 11, though, as long as 10 keeps being supported, even minimally. As I say, 7 isn't officially supported - I've forgotten when it was supposed to end - but MS keep maintaining it. Presumably they're trying to move everyone on to the latest offering whilst avoiding mass security issues on older machines.

I am now a little worried I've been too hasty again and this i7 chip is going to be disappointing! But most of what I do doesn't need to be blisteringly fast. I don't play computer games, and I can wait if things aren't happening immediately. It was just annoying when this (Toshiba C660 with i3 M380) maxed out its 4GB and everything seemed to lock up. Adding another 4, it ran sweet enough again. It has developed another issue where it overheats when I'm rendering video - I have to go into the advanced power settings and throttle the CPU to stop it crashing. I assume that's the contact with the heatsink getting dodgy. But it's about had it on several levels anyway - the plastics are all cracking up around the screw mounts, the delete key is getting twitchy, that kind of thing.

lettersquash said:

As I say, 7 isn't officially supported - I've forgotten when it was supposed to end - but MS keep maintaining it.

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I still have a couple of machines on Windows 7. There is no further support for the OS itself unless you paid for the Extended Security Updates. The one part of ESU that is free for everyone is AV, that's the Malicious Software Removal Tool and Signature Updates for Defender/Microsoft Security Essentials. I use MSE as my AV, it uses the same scan engine and definitions as Defender for Windows 10/11. We will continue to get these updates until ESU ends on 14th January 2023.

lettersquash said:

I see. I don't imagine I particularly want or need 11, though, as long as 10 keeps being supported, even minimally. As I say, 7 isn't officially supported - I've forgotten when it was supposed to end - but MS keep maintaining it. Presumably they're trying to move everyone on to the latest offering whilst avoiding mass security issues on older machines.

I am now a little worried I've been too hasty again and this i7 chip is going to be disappointing! But most of what I do doesn't need to be blisteringly fast. I don't play computer games, and I can wait if things aren't happening immediately. It was just annoying when this (Toshiba C660 with i3 M380) maxed out its 4GB and everything seemed to lock up. Adding another 4, it ran sweet enough again. It has developed another issue where it overheats when I'm rendering video - I have to go into the advanced power settings and throttle the CPU to stop it crashing. I assume that's the contact with the heatsink getting dodgy. But it's about had it on several levels anyway - the plastics are all cracking up around the screw mounts, the delete key is getting twitchy, that kind of thing.

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The i7-7600U is a 2 core/4thread CPU (I7-7600U), launched 5 years ago. In terms of more recent CPUs, its core count and performance are similar to an I3-1115G4 (Product Specifications).

My cheap laptop has an I3-6100U. It's slower than the I7-7600U, but usable for my purposes.

Cheap may be inconsistent with fast, even for older systems.

Bree said:

I still have a couple of machines on Windows 7. There is no further support for the OS itself unless you paid for the Extended Security Updates. The one part of ESU that is free for everyone is AV, that's the Malicious Software Removal Tool and Signature Updates for Defender/Microsoft Security Essentials. I use MSE as my AV, it uses the same scan engine and definitions as Defender for Windows 10/11. We will continue to get these updates until ESU ends on 14th January 2023.

FAQ about Extended Security Updates (ESU) for Windows 7

After January 14, 2020, Microsoft no longer provides extended security updates or support for computers that run Windows 7.

docs.microsoft.com

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OMG, I should really know this kind of stuff! But as far as AV's concerned, I switched to others anyway - currently Kaspersky, but recent events have made me want to switch again to BitDefender. I might give MSE a shot on the new machine. I suppose if you install a decent AV and firewall, even XP or earlier could stay online. Just the hardware will get old and tired like my brain.

bobkn said:

The i7-7600U is a 2 core/4thread CPU (I7-7600U), launched 5 years ago. In terms of more recent CPUs, its core count and performance are similar to an I3-1115G4 (Product Specifications).

My cheap laptop has an I3-6100U. It's slower than the I7-7600U, but usable for my purposes.

Cheap may be inconsistent with fast, even for older systems.

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Thanks for that, bobkn. I think I'll probably only know whether I've made a good decision after using the thing for several months or years. But I now see I've swapped more memory etc. for a rather (much?) slower processor AMD Ryzen 3 4300U vs Intel Core i7-7600U - GadgetVersus and for more money. Yikes. Or that was the plan - I could stick with the Flex 5 Ryzen 3. Aaarrgghhh.

lettersquash said:

Yikes. Or that was the plan - I could stick with the Flex 5 Ryzen 3. Aaarrgghhh.

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Decisions, decisions - or you could do what I have ended up doing, just buy one of each

Berton said:

I noticed one of the attachments about an ACER having 32GB storage, having experienced that on an 11.6" Dell Inspiron with some later versions of Win10 not having sufficient room to keep Upgrading and updates to those I'm staying away from 32GB drives, minimum for Win10 and Win11 when shopping should be at least 64GB. My little one has been running Linux Mint 20 very nicely on that 32GB and still has over 10GB free space. And it does have the fold-back screen and touch.

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Ditto! After the second returned 32 GB system, I learned my lesson.

lettersquash said:

But it's W10. Are you thinking of MS forcing everyone to upgrade? I noted Wynona said, "And, eventually, Windows 11 will probably be your only option. Just sayin'." However, I was anxious about Win7 being unsupported, but they're still installing the malicious software removal tool, so with some decent AV it's fine. Surely they can't force people to upgrade to 11 if their machines are going to take a performance hit? If so, it's definitely Linux time.

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To clarify my statement

And, eventually, Windows 11 will probably be your only option. Just sayin

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What I meant was that eventually Microsoft will no longer support even Windows 10. Which will mean only Windows 11 (and possibly 12) will be available for an upgrade.

Microsoft will never force anyone to install Windows 11 on inadequate hardware. They're doing everything in their power to convince us not to do that! By the same token, Microsoft is doing everything in its power to convince us to upgrade our Windows 10 systems to Windows 11 if our hardware qualifies.

BTW, just in case you aren't aware, if you choose to upgrade from Windows 10 to Windows 11, it won't cost you anything. Although I think I got the point that you don't want Windows 11.

My thought? The announced end of support for Win10 on Oct. 14, 2025, certainly is a way of saying there's sufficient time for users to get upgraded to machines that support the requirements. I've done it so as to know about the changes in Win11 in support of my clients who eventually with need to update their aging computers. So far I've not seen many difficulties versus Win10 such as running some older programs, i.e. Lotus SmartSuite 9.7 and 9.8 from 20 years ago [only issue is .hlp files don't work]. Some of the changes ended up with features from Control Panel being on the right-click of the Start button.

Wynona said:

To clarify my statement



What I meant was that eventually Microsoft will no longer support even Windows 10. Which will mean only Windows 11 (and possibly 12) will be available for an upgrade.

Microsoft will never force anyone to install Windows 11 on inadequate hardware. They're doing everything in their power to convince us not to do that! By the same token, Microsoft is doing everything in its power to convince us to upgrade our Windows 10 systems to Windows 11 if our hardware qualifies.

BTW, just in case you aren't aware, if you choose to upgrade from Windows 10 to Windows 11, it won't cost you anything. Although I think I got the point that you don't want Windows 11.

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Ah yes, of course. I have got so used to Windows that's "not supported" that "my only choice" sounded worse than it is.

Wynona said:

Ditto! After the second returned 32 GB system, I learned my lesson.

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Yeah, that's tiny. The other thing to consider is if it's a hard drive or SSD, because with the latter it's best to allow a very big margin of free space (I think some sources I've seen suggest a third or more), because if there's not enough free space it causes a lot more write operations on the same bit of the drive, causing eventual failure, and SSDs tend to just suddenly die, where HDDs lose bits and pieces at a time. I'm not sure if the technology has improved since then, or if it's just the nature of the beast.

lettersquash said:

Ah yes, of course. I have got so used to Windows that's "not supported" that "my only choice" sounded worse than it is.


Yeah, that's tiny. The other thing to consider is if it's a hard drive or SSD, because with the latter it's best to allow a very big margin of free space (I think some sources I've seen suggest a third or more), because if there's not enough free space it causes a lot more write operations on the same bit of the drive, causing eventual failure, and SSDs tend to just suddenly die, where HDDs lose bits and pieces at a time. I'm not sure if the technology has improved since then, or if it's just the nature of the beast.

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My two latest desktop machines have a 500 GB SSD as the OS drive and a 1 TB HDD (probably one of those 2 1/2" sized ones) for data.

SSDs have been greatly improved since those first ones came out. They're almost comparable to a regular hard drive. BTW, so far, I've not had a failure of any SSD drive I've owned.

As comparison only, my Western Digital SN530 (installed in this computer when I bought it) has a 5 year warranty. I'm pretty sure it'll last much longer than that, but I firmly believe Western Digital is hedging their bets with their warranty.

So, yeah, technology in general has come a long way since the advent of SSD and other new stuff.

Well, what a rubbish week! I just got my second laptop from CeX (and that's the last damn thing I'll ever get from them).

Quick reminder: So, having advised me in the shop that I could swap the 4GB memory on a Lenovo Flex 5 for 8GB (with 11 installed), and then finding (please correct me if I'm wrong, but...) you can't, it's soldered in and has no other memory slot, I decided I would probably send it back, and ordered a Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Yoga, adding another £105 to the bill at £345.

They sent a T470s ThinkPad (type 20HF, 20HG) instead (with the ThinkPad X1 Yoga product label stuck on the back, can you adam and eve it?), absolutely filthy on the keys and screen, with a broken bit in the back corner of the plastic base (spookily, one of the reasons I'm ditching my current Toshiba Satellite!). I've no email indicating they intended to substitute the item for something with a similar name. One of the most important spec details in my choice is a 360-degree flip screen, and this only goes to 180.

So it looks like I'm off to town to chuck two laptops at someone's head. Maybe that's why he wears a wooly hat indoors in the summer. Where to go from here I don't know, except I probably have to slow down my shopping urge, or throw more money at the problem, or both.

I'm still toying with the idea of keeping the Flex 5, but it seems a bit daft to do that. It runs fairly smoothly at the moment, but I haven't got to rendering video or anything yet, and, as I said, with my ~100 Firefox tabs open it's at 85%. It's also uncomfortable to type on, with a stupidly sharp front edge. It's in much better nick, and probably only a year or so old, and what's 240 quid these days? (A: It's 240 quid I could put into the kitty on a better laptop.)

lettersquash said:

Well, what a rubbish week! I just got my second laptop from CeX (and that's the last damn thing I'll ever get from them).

Quick reminder: So, having advised me in the shop that I could swap the 4GB memory on a Lenovo Flex 5 for 8GB (with 11 installed), and then finding (please correct me if I'm wrong, but...) you can't, it's soldered in and has no other memory slot, I decided I would probably send it back, and ordered a Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Yoga, adding another £105 to the bill at £345.

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Try Cash Converters. A quick search found this (and others)...

£300: Lenovo Thinkpad L390 Yoga Core i7-8565U 8GB 512GB SSD 13.3 Inch Full HD Touch Screen Windows 10 Pro 2-In-1
(although they say 'Windows 10' in the description, the screenshots show it has been upgraded to Windows 11)


Specs: ThinkPad L390 Yoga | 2-in-1 business Laptop with Pen | Lenovo UK

With an 8th Gen i7 and TPM 2.0 (according to the User Guide manual) it should be a supported device for Windows 11.

Manuals: laptops and netbooks :: thinkpad l series laptops :: thinkpad l390 yoga type 20nt 20nu - Lenovo Support GB

lettersquash said:

One of the most important spec details in my choice is a 360-degree flip screen, and this only goes to 180.

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I'd rethink that, mainly in that if one starts at 0° and turns 360° they are back at 0°, my 11.3" Inspiron flips the keyboard 180° to the back/bottom of the case, can't go all the way around. The reason it is called a 2-in-1 is it can be a Notebook/Laptop or a Tablet.
Images here:

Bree said:

Try Cash Converters. A quick search found this (and others)...

£300: Lenovo Thinkpad L390 Yoga Core i7-8565U 8GB 512GB SSD 13.3 Inch Full HD Touch Screen Windows 10 Pro 2-In-1
(although they say 'Windows 10' in the description, the screenshots show it has been upgraded to Windows 11)

Lenovo Lenovo Thinkpad L390 Yoga Core i7-8565U 8GB 512GB SSD 13.3 Inch Full HD Touch Screen Windows 10 Pro 2-In-1 Laptop Intel Core i7 8GB 512GB SSD | 040700167029 | Cash Converters

Lenovo ThinkPad L390 Yoga Core i7-8565U 8GB 512GB SSD 13.3 Inch Full HD Touch Screen Windows 10 Pro 2-in-1 Laptop. Item is in fairly condition, slight scratches on lid as seen in photos. Mains lead included

www.cashconverters.co.uk

Specs: ThinkPad L390 Yoga | 2-in-1 business Laptop with Pen | Lenovo UK

With an 8th Gen i7 and TPM 2.0 (according to the User Guide manual) it should be a supported device for Windows 11.

Manuals: laptops and netbooks :: thinkpad l series laptops :: thinkpad l390 yoga type 20nt 20nu - Lenovo Support GB

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Many thanks, Bree. I see a few on there searching for "convertible" in laptops. I'll do some reading. I'm also liking the look of this possibly, with a 14" screen (13.3 is just a tad smaller than I'd like, I think, but not a deal breaker). HP Elitebook X360 Convertible 1030 G2 Hsn-104C Intel Core i5-7300U Cpu @ 2.60 GHz 8GB 256GB (SSD) Silver | 044500045296 | Cash Converters

Berton said:

I'd rethink that, mainly in that if one starts at 0° and turns 360° they are back at 0°, my 11.3" Inspiron flips the keyboard 180° to the back/bottom of the case, can't go all the way around. The reason it is called a 2-in-1 is it can be a Notebook/Laptop or a Tablet.
Images here:

inspiron 11 3000 series - Google Search

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Yeah, but surely that's what 360-degrees means, going round until it's on the back/bottom. Closed, the screen is facing downwards. In tablet mode, it's again facing downwards (except you move it, of course). 180 means it just opens until it's flush with the keyboard. Or am I missing something?

Hard to say since I'm 7 hours further West than you. 7 x 15° = 105°

lettersquash said:

. I'm also liking the look of this possibly, with a 14" screen (13.3 is just a tad smaller than I'd like, I think, but not a deal breaker). HP Elitebook X360 Convertible 1030 G2 Hsn-104C Intel Core i5-7300U Cpu @ 2.60 GHz 8GB 256GB (SSD) Silver | 044500045296 | Cash Converters

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That has a 7th gen i5 (the beginning of the processor number is the generation) so is an unsupported device for Windows 11. 8th gen or later is required.

Bree said:

That has a 7th gen i5 (the beginning of the processor number is the generation) so is an unsupported device for Windows 11. 8th gen or later is required.

Intel® Processor Names, Numbers and Generation List

Understanding Intel® processor names and numbers helps identify the best laptop, desktop, or mobile device CPU for your computing needs.

www.intel.co.uk

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Thanks. Your help is really amazing in this process. And I suppose having W11 as an option is important for the longer support. I've been thinking "I don't like W11", but I've never used 10, so I suppose I should probably go for gen 8+.

The returns policy looks ok on cash converters, and their descriptions are much better - the CeX site (webuy.com) is awful. The only downside is I'd lose postage if I returned, where I happen to live in a town where I can drop off my garbage to the CeX shop.

lettersquash said:

I suppose having W11 as an option is important for the longer support. I've been thinking "I don't like W11", but I've never used 10, so I suppose I should probably go for gen 8+.

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Yes. Even if you don't intend to go to Windows 11 (yet) for the long term I would not go for less than 8th gen (or the equivalent from AMD). Windows 10 support ends on 14 October 2025.

Microsoft said:

Microsoft will continue to support at least one Windows 10 release until October 14, 2025.

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https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle/products/windows-10-home-and-pro

Dru2 said:

I was merely alerting you of a potential situation. However, you addressed my concern when you said "it's W10" - Point being you know it's an old machine.

As for being "forced to upgrade", I wasn't aware Microsoft was forcing anyone to do anything, and especially on a machine with hardware not officially supported. In short, you won't be "forced" to Windows 11. However, if you want to run Windows 11 on it as I am (insiders) you can. And it requires no registry hacks

Good luck. And nice machine :)

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What's happening right now is about the same as when ALL tvs went from Analog to Digital signal. Everyone felt, thought and believed that they had to go out and buy a brand new TV..lol..