How to Upgrade Win 10 to Win 11 after Motherboard Upgrade

They said so to discourage us install Windows 11 on unsupported systems, that's their goal. Doing that is another story remaining to be seen. I will risk it.

spapakons said:

They said so to discourage us install Windows 11 on unsupported systems, that's their goal. Doing that is another story remaining to be seen. I will risk it.

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To discourage you for your own good, not theirs. They want to make Windows more secure and it's going to take better hardware to do that.

spapakons said:

... Al long as Microsoft doesn't make any major changes to Windows 11, it will remain identical to Windows 10 64-bit ... If some future build is totally different and incompatible with the CPU (using new instructions found only on newer CPUs), ...

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Right. But I believe such changes are likely in the coming years.

spapakons said:

I think that kind of change to the code is unlikely because it would be like rewriting the OS from start and would introduce major incompatibilities with existing software.

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It is likely. I thought it was crazy when I first saw Windows 11's system requirements. I still think it is crazy. But I think it adds up to what they want to do next, and it is not like a major rewrite at all. It is more like, they now presume that you have the latest and greatest hardware. You can, of course, flat out lie to the installer app, and install Windows 11 anyway, but then again, I don't believe they did this only to boost hardware sales, there must be other reasons too why they made TPM mandatory, even though they probably knew very well that there are so many PCs out there without it. Almost none of the desktop PCs have it, unless they were manufactured in a few years ago, which they have to be, thanks to their other crazy requirement (8th gen Intel or new gen Ryzen)
I do have an 8th and 10th gen Intel, but I also have a 4th gen one that still works fine, and I am sad to lose upgrades at 2025 due to this. It is less than 3 years time when Windows 10's support will be cut off, and a perfectly usable system will be left vulnerable. I'll probably switch to Linux, they are not this crazy.

Let me give a few examples on what could they add or "change":

- They could enable BitLocker by default on system disks.
(It would make sense to me from a security perspective, just imagine how much it would reduce the risk of identity/data theft in case a device is stolen)

- They could seriously improve their Find My Device feature
(This feature, at the moment seems very half-baked to me. An attacker could easily just disable it by reinstalling the OS from the boot menu. But, with BitLocker enabled, perhaps restricting access to the UEFI SETUP and boot menu by default, for example locking it down with the Windows Hello PIN code, in case the owner sets it into lost mode (similar to what Apple does with the Find My Mac's lock feature, where you have to enter a pincode at boot time, or it won't boot and you can't bypass it). TPM is a great help here. No point of storing keys, and these settings on the hard disk.

- They could prevent unathorized removal of Microsoft Accounts from the computer
(Nowadays, when its stored in the OS only, you can just format the drive and the Microsoft account is gone as it is just an OS setting. However, were it to use a unique key, hardware-specific, stored in the TPM, force-read every boot time, with an encrypted hard disk, and locked UEFI menu, and even if you still managed to reinstall the OS, it would instantly sign back in to the Microsoft account as it was stored in the TPM, and possibly tying hardware IDs to this Microsoft account lock as well. This again, would seriously cripple any theft attempts I think. Much like how Apple does it. - I mean, good luck trying to remove an Apple ID without password from an unknown Mac)

spapakons said:

Remember when Apple removed Rosetta from Mac OS X?

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Yes. They kept it for almost 5 years - it appeared in the INtel version of Mac OSX 10.4 Tiger, was kept in OSX 10.5 Leopard, and OSX 10.6 Snow Leopard, which was released in 2009, supported until summer 2011. Actually that's more than 5 years.
By that time not many people were using PowerPC apps anymore, and those who did, could just stay on Snow Leopard.

spapakons said:

Many legacy applications could not run and users were forced to upgrade all their old applications.

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Actually Rosetta was kind of amazing at the time and had a good success rate. They were not forced to upgrade as Apple offered support for these OSX versions with Rosetta for about 6 years (until summer 2011) from the release of the first intel based Mac OSX edition. I would call it a day.

spapakons said:

I don't think Microsoft wants thousands of unhappy customers, so they should avoid doing something similar, leaving Windows 11 compatible with all computers running Windows 10 64-bit, albeit if they don't meet all the requirements.

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Yes you are right. However, I think they are too late to avoid it. I believe they will have much worse turnout ratio at this, than Apple did. They just have to wait a few years for the, eh, storm to hit the fan - when Windows 10 support is pulled. I don't think masses of people will flock to the stores just to get a Windows 11 certified PC, especially not with these bogus requirements. Yes, from a security perspective, they are useful and indeed can make things more secure, but the average user won't care a bit about this, they will be more annoyed how their favorite app won't run anymore. They will resist and stay on old versions, much like Windows XP was used way past its EOL date, and Windows 7 still seems very wildly deployed. (I can understand it, it was really a robust OS, Windows 10 and 11 are not even close in stability in my opinion).
Compatibility hell and fragmentation incoming. Releasing when Windows 10 support ends...

ish4d0w said:

Right. But I believe such changes are likely in the coming years.

It is more like, they now presume that you have the latest and greatest hardware.

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The "latest and greatest hardware" is certainly not an i7-7800X (June 2017), an i7-8700 (Jan 2018) or an i9-9900K (Oct 2018). These are some of the processors listed here, in Microsoft's supported Windows 11 processors. And those I listed are discontinued, along with their corresponding motherboards. That's hardly "latest and greatest", and especially when you consider all the processors and motherboards released after.

And my i9 system listed in system specs is hardly latest and greatest hardware, yet it's still fully Windows 11 compatible

Now if you want to argue PC's older than 5 years...yeah. Latest and greatest... no.

ish4d0w said:

there must be other reasons too why they made TPM mandatory, even though they probably knew very well that there are so many PCs out there without it. Almost none of the desktop PCs have it, unless they were manufactured in a few years ago,

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TPM (2.0) has been around since 2013 and have been included in the BIOS (firmware TPM aka PTT) for at least 7 years now. And pretty much every laptop manufactured around that time include TPM 2.0. Additionally, near all motherboard vendors (Asus, Gigabyte, EVGA, MSI) have had firmware TPM since at least 2015. Again, hardly new tech. In the last 3 Gigabyte boards I bought since 2017 all have firmware TPM in the UEFI Bios

BTW - Trusted Platform Module (TPM) - Microsoft Research (Established: January 1, 2000)

All that said, some are "conveniently overlooking" the fact that Windows 10 is still a viable OS with 3 more years of full support. Point?... one does NOT have to / need to upgrade to Windows 11 if their machines aren't compatible. And Microsoft isn't forcing it on incompatible machines!!!

I think a bit of research (facts) rather than emotions should rule here :)

When a new Windows version is released you have the feeling that your old version currently use is (or will be) outdated and you have to upgrade to the new version. I always want the latest software to extend the life of my system. Microsoft's new system requirements were not a pleasant surprise, but thankfully there is a workaround. I don't know how frequently you replace your computers in USA, but here in Greece we don't normally replace it if we can still do our job or whatever other purpose we use it for, we can still buy new peripherals and connect to or install latest software. Forcing us to upgrade, regardless that it is far from obsolete for our everyday computing, is not desirable. As long as there is a workaround and our computers remain compatible with current builds and software, I see no reason to upgrade them, let alone replace them. Security is not a reason, since we hardly need this level of security on an average system. All we need is an updated antivirus and use the internet wisely. Not click Yes on every pop-up just to get rid of it. I too never read all the messages but I click on No instead or close the pop-up window from the X button. Never click Yes. Common sense.

spapakons said:

When a new Windows version is released you have the feeling that your old version currently use is (or will be) outdated and you have to upgrade to the new version.

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Yes, I understand that feeling, and why I did upgrade to Windows 11, but that was by choice, not "force". Not "force" because...

1) For the first time Microsoft now has two fully functional consumer Windows OS out at the same time - Windows 10 & Windows 11
2) Windows 10 is still viable, there's no need to rush into Windows 11, especially if your hardware doesn't support it.

Again, if your current hardware doesn't support Windows 11, stick to Windows 10 until you get the hardware for 11. There is no rush. And it's not like Windows 11 is that far superior to Windows 10 as to make 10 useless or even a security risk

Dru2 said:

Why do you need to remove a driver before replacing a motherboard?

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Because in my case, without the graphics card being reinstalled onto the mobo, the drivers kept looking for it and I got nothing but a black screen. I had to replace the graphics card, remove all the drivers to it, etc. Once that was done, my computer could see the onboard graphics.

Wynona said:

Because in my case, without the graphics card being reinstalled onto the mobo, the drivers kept looking for it and I got nothing but a black screen. I had to replace the graphics card, remove all the drivers to it, etc. Once that was done, my computer could see the onboard graphics.

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That's an anomaly, not an absolute everyday occurrence; thus, my counter would be I've never had to do that. And I've been building since 1998, with my last build in 2019.

Edited to add... Yes, anything can happen, but it's the consistency of occurrences that will determine actions needed. In this instance unless an action happens, I stick to the known working norm

Dru2 said:

That's an anomaly, not an absolute everyday occurrence; thus, my counter would be I've never had to do that. And I've been building since 1998, with my last build in 2019.

Edited to add... Yes, anything can happen, but it's the consistency of occurrences that will determine actions needed. In this instance unless an action happens, I stick to the known working norm

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Actually, I've been building since around 1985 or so.

Wynona said:

Actually, I've been building since around 1985 or so.

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Yeah, but when was the last time you built? I've several builds posted between the Vista forums and the Windows Ten forums

And I know people who were building before me (some I learnt from), but no longer do so and are lost in today's hardware tech.

Peace

spapakons said:

When a new Windows version is released you have the feeling that your old version currently use is (or will be) outdated and you have to upgrade to the new version. I always want the latest software to extend the life of my system. Microsoft's new system requirements were not a pleasant surprise, but thankfully there is a workaround. I don't know how frequently you replace your computers in USA, but here in Greece we don't normally replace it if we can still do our job or whatever other purpose we use it for, we can still buy new peripherals and connect to or install latest software. Forcing us to upgrade, regardless that it is far from obsolete for our everyday computing, is not desirable. As long as there is a workaround and our computers remain compatible with current builds and software, I see no reason to upgrade them, let alone replace them. Security is not a reason, since we hardly need this level of security on an average system. All we need is an updated antivirus and use the internet wisely. Not click Yes on every pop-up just to get rid of it. I too never read all the messages but I click on No instead or close the pop-up window from the X button. Never click Yes. Common sense.

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When in doubt I won't click on anything. I will close the browser and restart my computer. They can easily change that click to direct you where they want.

Wynona said:

Because in my case, without the graphics card being reinstalled onto the mobo, the drivers kept looking for it and I got nothing but a black screen. I had to replace the graphics card, remove all the drivers to it, etc. Once that was done, my computer could see the onboard graphics.

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I find that very surprising. Windows 10 and 11 are usually very forgiving when it comes to hardware changes. I have taken the OS drives out of one computer and installed it in another computer and Windows booted, activated and worked without a problem. I guess this shows that nothing is 100%.

Problems with graphics or other drivers that lead to black screen, are usually seen on old systems that there is not a driver available for some device. Windows try to install driver for this device and fails, so it never proceeds from the black screen to load the desktop. Uninstalling previous graphics drivers forces Windows to use the Microsoft Basic Display Adapter, in case a driver is not available. After you login to the desktop, Windows Update usually finds a generic driver and installs it for better graphics. Of course for the best possible performance and compatibility it is always recommended to download and install the latest official graphics drivers from manufacturer. If there is no driver for Windows 11, download for 10 64-bit or 8 or 7 or even Vista 64-bit. These always work with the exception of some Windows 7 graphics drivers that are made on purpose to prevent installation on 10 or 11 to force us upgrade our system. Sounds familiar?

spapakons said:

Problems with graphics or other drivers that lead to black screen, are usually seen on old systems that there is not a driver available for some device. Windows try to install driver for this device and fails, so it never proceeds from the black screen to load the desktop. Uninstalling previous graphics drivers forces Windows to use the Microsoft Basic Display Adapter, in case a driver is not available. After you login to the desktop, Windows Update usually finds a generic driver and installs it for better graphics. Of course for the best possible performance and compatibility it is always recommended to download and install the latest official graphics drivers from manufacturer. If there is no driver for Windows 11, download for 10 64-bit or 8 or 7 or even Vista 64-bit. These always work with the exception of some Windows 7 graphics drivers that are made on purpose to prevent installation on 10 or 11 to force us upgrade our system. Sounds familiar?

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I wouldn't call a system that's less than a year old:

on old systems that there is not a driver available for some device.

Maybe, but the OP (optimxr) system IS "fully compliant" so no need to complicate things. For him the Media Creation Tool would work just fine. It's simple, quick, and easy. Why complicate things when there's no need to do so?

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Hey Dru2, just got my Samsung 980 Pro M.2 SSD installed and initialized for GPT(see Attachment). I ran a CrystalDiskMark 1st test and the results seem pretty impressive(see attachment). I intend to move my C: drive image to this drive before I upgrade to Windows 11. Do you have any advise on how I should set this drive up to prepare for Windows 11? Are there some links that might better inform me as to how I should approach this?

You don't need any special preparation. Just clone your Windows 10 disk on the M.2 and boot from there. Provided you have installed all drivers, including the one for M.2 controller, you should be OK. If you have problem booting, use Windows 10 media and repair startup. If your installation is UEFI and your system is compliant, just mount the Windows 11 ISO to upgrade. If it is MBR or your computer is not fully compliant, start Setup and delete the file C:\Windows.~BT\sources\appreserres.dll before proceeding.

PS: I recently cloned a mechanical disk to an SSD and Windows had difficulty booting. After some failed attempts to repair startup, I decided to clone again. It turned out that the first clone wasn't successful (in spite Macrium reported otherwise). The second clone was OK and it booted in Windows 11. So if it doesn't boot to the desktop with the first time, or the second, don't hesitate to repeat the clone.

Dru2 said:

The "latest and greatest hardware" is certainly not an ...


TPM (2.0) has been around since 2013

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It might have been around but definitely NOT implemented in the firmware in so many cases.

Dru2 said:

in the BIOS (firmware TPM aka PTT)

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I am struggling to find it in Gigabyte's B560 D3H which is not a very old board, it supports 10th and 11th gen CPUs...

Dru2 said:

And pretty much every laptop manufactured around that time include TPM 2.0.

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Yes. Notebooks. And not desktops. They have just started, and quite many of them seem to miss FTPM/PTT virtual TPM

Dru2 said:

Additionally, near all motherboard vendors (Asus, Gigabyte, EVGA, MSI) have had firmware TPM since at least 2015. Again, hardly new tech. In the last 3 Gigabyte boards I bought since 2017 all have firmware TPM in the UEFI Bios

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I will have to double check this on Monday because the last time I checked it I couldn't find it. But I agree many boards have it and I was puzzled why I don't. I'll pull a fw upd.

Dru2 said:

BTW - Trusted Platform Module (TPM) - Microsoft Research (Established: January 1, 2000)

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Thanks, great read!

Dru2 said:

All that said, some are "conveniently overlooking" the fact that Windows 10 is still a viable OS with 3 more years of full support.

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Right. I never argued that. My point of concern is what happens after those 3 years. Windows 10's life had been cut way too short. XP had a longer run...

Dru2 said:

Point?... one does NOT have to / need to upgrade to Windows 11 if their machines aren't compatible. And Microsoft isn't forcing it on incompatible machines!!!
I think a bit of research (facts) rather than emotions should rule here :)

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Right... I still think of it like Microsoft excluded a lot of perfectly useful and powerful hardware here. And that's too bad, no matter how they portrait it.

Yes, it bothers me that my fairly new Acer gaming laptop is not eligible for 11 because it's Ryzen 5 2500U processor is deemed to be not good enough. It meets every other requirement. I'm not forcing 11 onto it though. I'll stick with 10 and see what happens in the future. Who knows? They may decide to extend support longer.

ish4d0w said:

Right... I still think of it like Microsoft excluded a lot of perfectly useful and powerful hardware here. And that's too bad, no matter how they portrait it.

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In order for technology to advance sometimes things have to be left behind. Windows is moving into a new age.

And I'm in that boat with my 2017 Lenovo laptop because of the CPU, not TPM

spapakons said:

PS: I recently cloned a mechanical disk to an SSD and Windows had difficulty booting. After some failed attempts to repair startup, I decided to clone again. It turned out that the first clone wasn't successful (in spite Macrium reported otherwise). The second clone was OK and it booted in Windows 11. So if it doesn't boot to the desktop with the first time, or the second, don't hesitate to repeat the clone.

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In that case, there must have been a problem with the cloning process because there is no difference to Winows between a hard disk drive and an SSD. Of course the latter is faster but other than that, same drill.

Make sure to clone disk , not partitions. If you don't want to clone all partitions then you can manually exclude some of them, after you chose to clone the whole disk. In this case, the MBR/GPT records are updated, as are other boot parameters. If Macrium gives you an option to update these settings then you should click yes.

Macrium is good for cloning, yet if you want to try something difference, I consider Acronis True Image to be the most reliable, above everything else. Sadly they moved to a subscription-only model, which is annoying because I merely use the core features - backup, restore, and cloning, and honestly don't need a new version every year, but still, it is my personal favorite as it had never failed on me, not even in the more complex scenerios, restoring to a different disk layout etc. AOMEI Backupper is also great for this purpose.