I kind of agree with this article! (Not a question)

BrianInEngland · Aug 17, 2023

MisterEd said:
I am perplexed why you would want to remove a drive before you take the computer to a shop. If you remove the drive when it may contribute to the problem then you are not doing yourself or the tech a favor. In fact it wouldn't make any sense at all if the drive you removed was the boot drive.

I build my own PCs, but sometimes something can go wrong. I don't have the patience nor the time to spend hours running Memtests etc, and I have no spare parts I can swap with. It's easier just to drop it in at a repair shop and let them test it. My boot drive is an M.2 NVMe, but I now keep all my personal files on an easily-removeable SATA SSD.

Luckily I've had virtually zero problems with my builds over the years but you never know what can go wrong

pparks1 · Aug 17, 2023

I've never had the pleasure (insert sarcasm here), or taking my PC into a shop to get it worked on. I've always been able to tackle my issues.

I have had to take my daughters MacBook to the apple store a few times. While I have some apple stores nearby, the pretentious snobbery is overwhelming to me.

MisterEd · Aug 17, 2023

Scannerman said:
Installing M.2 and M.2 NVMe drive on a system board can be a bit of a pain when the board is already populated. It's that leetle tiny set screw that freely falls off the end of the magnetic screwdriver to disappear into oblivion that gets me. With standard SATA SSDs this is not an issue. That's why I don't see any advantage with SATA powered M.2 drives. In most cases they're not even faster than regular SSDs. I suppose they might have some use in some laptops. I used to think SSDs would replace mechanical hard drives in a few years but nope... People are still buying them and they're still selling like hotcakes.

I wouldn't send a PC to a computer shop unless it was already under warranty and the shop covered it; but then I build my own computers so I'm the shop. I did send my Dell PITA touch screen back to Dell because it was under warranty and before I did that I factory reset the the drive. I didn't pay for shipping and I didn't pay for repairs. It had a battery issue. The silly thing is a dust collector.

I'm convinced that standard SSDs are still going to be around for another ten years.

I agree the tiny screws for M.2 SSDs is a pain and is easy to drop and lose if you aren't careful. Also, the size is not even standard for all brands of PCs. Some motherboards now have a mechanism to hold the M.2 SSD without a screw. I wish they would all do it that way.

The only reason 2.5-inch SATA SSDs exist is because they were direct replacements for 2.5-inch and 3.5-inch HDDs. Now that HDDs are being slowly phased out they serve no purpose for new PCs. However, their best use now is for upgrading old PCs and replacing existing ones that fail.

I don't understand why you call 2.5-inch SATA SSDs "standard"? They were only meant as a way to transition from using HDDs to SSDs. Their usefulness is past so it is time for them to be phased out.

The biggest problem with SATA SSDs is the SATA interface itself. The SATA interface's speed is more than enough for HDDs but bottlenecks SSDs which are capable of much greater speeds. The best way to unlock the SSD's speed is to use the PCIe interface. The M.2 NVME SSD was designed for the PCIe bus. For even greater speeds it uses 4 PCIe lanes.

I believe that the main reason SATA SSDs exist is because when they came out they were cheaper than M.2 NVME SSDs. It appears that price difference no longer exists. As time goes on SATA SSDs will be slowly phased out because of that. Sure they will be around for a few more years but only for legacy use.

If you check, HDDs are becoming harder to buy as they are being phases out. The same will happen for 2.5-inch SATA SSDs when they are phased out. Sure it probably won't be for another 10 years but it will happen.

pparks1 · Aug 17, 2023

MisterEd said:
The biggest problem with SATA SSDs is the SATA interface itself. The SATA interface's speed is more than enough for HDDs but bottlenecks SSDs which are capable of much greater speeds. The best way to unlock the SSD's speed is to use the PCIe interface. The M.2 NVME SSD was designed for the PCIe bus. For even greater speeds it uses 4 PCIe lanes.

Yes, the SATA interface can be a bottleneck for sure. However, the biggest advantage to the SSD is still the fraction of a millisecond random access speeds. That's more important to performance in most cases than raw throughput.

I have a WD SN850 PCIe Gen 4 NVMe in my box that benchmarks at 7000/5100. It's wicked fast. But i also have a Sandisk Ultra 2TB SATA SSD which has a lowly 560/530 rating in the same box. For a handful of games I play, the speed difference between the NVMe and the 2.5" SSD can only be proved with a stopwatch. For example, with something like Call Of Duty, my game loads might be 11.1 seconds on the NVMe, and 11.7 on the SSD. Is it faster...yes. Is it 14x faster as the specs might lead you to believe, nope. Not saying that every single game would be exactly the same, but in many cases it's the case. The games simply cannot take advantage of needing to read or write continuously at those speeds.

It's the same for booting your OS. Your machine won't boot 14x times faster with the NVMe. Now, if you are copying 400GB video files from C:\data to D:\data and both drives are NVMe's versus Sata SSD's you will see a massive difference in copy speeds.

Scannerman · Aug 17, 2023

MisterEd said:
The only reason 2.5-inch SATA SSDs exist is because they were direct replacements for 2.5-inch and 3.5-inch HDDs. Now that HDDs are being slowly phased out they serve no purpose for new PCs. However, their best use now is for upgrading old PCs and replacing existing ones that fail.

The biggest problem with SATA SSDs is the SATA interface itself. The SATA interface's speed is more than enough for HDDs but bottlenecks SSDs which are capable of much greater speeds. The best way to unlock the SSD's speed is to use the PCIe interface. The M.2 NVME SSD was designed for the PCIe bus. For even greater speeds it uses 4 PCIe lanes.

I believe that the main reason SATA SSDs exist is because when they came out they were cheaper than M.2 NVME SSDs. It appears that price difference no longer exists. As time goes on SATA SSDs will be slowly phased out because of that.

Oh, I don't think that's the "only reason". I'm sure there's more to it than that. 2.5 inch SSD's are faster, more efficient, and less expensive to make. They're lighter, less klunky, and have no moving parts. I do have to agree that their best use at present is to upgrade older PCs — especially those still using mechanical hard drives with operating systems on them.

Speed isn't everthang... Sometimes it's the only thing. Other times slow and steady works just fine. I'm thinking that's why mechanical hard drives still sell. Still, I have to agree that band width matters. Give me 40 lanes and I'll turn this rig around on a dime. So when it comes to speed standard SATA drives are just that. SATA has speed limitations, but it can still get you to where you're going in a reasonable amount of time with a standard SSD. Now in situations where you need to move a whole lot of data quickly you'll want to go with NVMe but it's gonna cost you some bandwidth so you're going to want a CPU that can deliver. (And if you want a whole lot of NVMe you might have to be prepared to sacrifice some of those SATA ports.) RAID 0 on NVMe is crazy fast but then RAID 0 also has special problems of its own. Personally, I wouldn't run an operating system on it.

The fact that SATA SSDs have dropped so low in price is what makes them so popular in spite of NVMe being faster.

If I were a betting man I'd wager that SATA SSDs will still be around ten years from now.

The reason for this is the same reason mechanical hard drives are still selling like hot cakes.

MisterEd · Aug 17, 2023

pparks1 said:
Yes, the SATA interface can be a bottleneck for sure. However, the biggest advantage to the SSD is still the fraction of a millisecond random access speeds. That's more important to performance in most cases than raw throughput.

I have a WD SN850 PCIe Gen 4 NVMe in my box that benchmarks at 7000/5100. It's wicked fast. But i also have a Sandisk Ultra 2TB SATA SSD which has a lowly 560/530 rating in the same box. For a handful of games I play, the speed difference between the NVMe and the 2.5" SSD can only be proved with a stopwatch. For example, with something like Call Of Duty, my game loads might be 11.1 seconds on the NVMe, and 11.7 on the SSD. Is it faster...yes. Is it 14x faster as the specs might lead you to believe, nope. Not saying that every single game would be exactly the same, but in many cases it's the case. The games simply cannot take advantage of needing to read or write continuously at those speeds.

It's the same for booting your OS. Your machine won't boot 14x times faster with the NVMe. Now, if you are copying 400GB video files from C:\data to D:\data and both drives are NVMe's versus Sata SSD's you will see a massive difference in copy speeds.

To understand what is going on you have to look at the marketing. The SSD manufactures mainly highlight the sequential read speeds which have been increasing with faster PCIe bus versions. They have convinced the world that faster is better so that is what PC manufactuers and the general public wants. Hype does sell doesn't it?

I agree that the random speeds are more important than sequential speeds. That is because most files on the disk are not stored sequentially. That means random access speeds are more important.

I put 2.5-inch SATA SSDs in two old computers only because I got spoiled by the newer computers with M.2 NVME SSDs. These SATA SSDs were replacing existing 3.5-inch SATA SSDs. To my surprise the difference was not just in the faster boot times but were also much faster at the desktop. That now makes sense because every time you select something your disk has to be accessed.

BTW, I have a few M.2 SSDs left over as I replaced old ones with bigger ones. I have external enclosures for them. When connected to a USB 3.0 port the speeds for NVME SSDs is not much faster than SATA SSDs. That is because USB 3.0 is not much faster than SATA SSDs. It is different with USB 3.1 (10Gbps). Then the sequential speed is about double for NVME SSDs but about the same for SATA SSDs. However, to my surprise the random speeds are about the same for both USB 3.0 and USB 3.1. Also, the random speeds are about the same for both SATA and NVME SSDs.

Scannerman · Aug 17, 2023

pparks1 said:
Yes, the SATA interface can be a bottleneck for sure. However, the biggest advantage to the SSD is still the fraction of a millisecond random access speeds. That's more important to performance in most cases than raw throughput.

I have a WD SN850 PCIe Gen 4 NVMe in my box that benchmarks at 7000/5100. It's wicked fast. But i also have a Sandisk Ultra 2TB SATA SSD which has a lowly 560/530 rating in the same box. For a handful of games I play, the speed difference between the NVMe and the 2.5" SSD can only be proved with a stopwatch. For example, with something like Call Of Duty, my game loads might be 11.1 seconds on the NVMe, and 11.7 on the SSD. Is it faster...yes. Is it 14x faster as the specs might lead you to believe, nope. Not saying that every single game would be exactly the same, but in many cases it's the case. The games simply cannot take advantage of needing to read or write continuously at those speeds.

It's the same for booting your OS. Your machine won't boot 14x times faster with the NVMe. Now, if you are copying 400GB video files from C:\data to D:\data and both drives are NVMe's versus Sata SSD's you will see a massive difference in copy speeds.

Dead on.

Did you see Linus' video where he puts a bunch of gamers on identical rigs using each using either regular M.2, SATA, or NVMe? They seriously could not tell the difference! They often confused the SATA for the NVMe because they said it gave them a smoother game. It was hilarious. Now to be fair, if he had them do large file transfers NVMe would win hands down every time. So it really depends on what you're using your system for. Then there are those who like to boast about their crazy fast RAM speeds and I ask them what their CAS is and omgg some of this stuff is like in the high 20's! Nothing to write home about. Now if you can do 3600 @ a CAS of 14-14-14 you got me beat. (But just barely).

BrianInEngland · Aug 17, 2023

MisterEd said:
Yes, the SATA interface can be a bottleneck for sure. However, the biggest advantage to the SSD is still the fraction of a millisecond random access speeds. That's more important to performance in most cases than raw throughput.

pparks1 said:
I have a WD SN850 PCIe Gen 4 NVMe in my box that benchmarks at 7000/5100. It's wicked fast. But i also have a Sandisk Ultra 2TB SATA SSD which has a lowly 560/530 rating in the same box. For a handful of games I play, the speed difference between the NVMe and the 2.5" SSD can only be proved with a stopwatch. For example, with something like Call Of Duty, my game loads might be 11.1 seconds on the NVMe, and 11.7 on the SSD. Is it faster...yes. Is it 14x faster as the specs might lead you to believe, nope. Not saying that every single game would be exactly the same, but in many cases it's the case. The games simply cannot take advantage of needing to read or write continuously at those speeds.

It's the same for booting your OS. Your machine won't boot 14x times faster with the NVMe. Now, if you are copying 400GB video files from C:\data to D:\data and both drives are NVMe's versus Sata SSD's you will see a massive difference in copy speeds.

MisterEd said:
I agree the tiny screws for M.2 SSDs is a pain and is easy to drop and lose if you aren't careful. Also, the size is not even standard for all brands of PCs. Some motherboards now have a mechanism to hold the M.2 SSD without a screw. I wish they would all do it that way.

The only reason 2.5-inch SATA SSDs exist is because they were direct replacements for 2.5-inch and 3.5-inch HDDs. Now that HDDs are being slowly phased out they serve no purpose for new PCs. However, their best use now is for upgrading old PCs and replacing existing ones that fail.

I don't understand why you call 2.5-inch SATA SSDs "standard"? They were only meant as a way to transition from using HDDs to SSDs. Their usefulness is past so it is time for them to be phased out.

The biggest problem with SATA SSDs is the SATA interface itself. The SATA interface's speed is more than enough for HDDs but bottlenecks SSDs which are capable of much greater speeds. The best way to unlock the SSD's speed is to use the PCIe interface. The M.2 NVME SSD was designed for the PCIe bus. For even greater speeds it uses 4 PCIe lanes.

I believe that the main reason SATA SSDs exist is because when they came out they were cheaper than M.2 NVME SSDs. It appears that price difference no longer exists. As time goes on SATA SSDs will be slowly phased out because of that. Sure they will be around for a few more years but only for legacy use.

If you check, HDDs are becoming harder to buy as they are being phases out. The same will happen for 2.5-inch SATA SSDs when they are phased out. Sure it probably won't be for another 10 years but it will happen.

Well when they become almost obsolete and Amazon are selling them off really cheap I can buy some more

As a speed test, I changed the NVMe bus speed in the BIOS from x4 to x1, it made literally zero difference to the Windows boot time

Scannerman · Aug 17, 2023

MisterEd said:
BTW, I have a few M.2 SSDs left over as I replaced old ones with bigger ones. I have external enclosures for them. When connected to a USB 3.0 port the speeds for NVME SSDs is not much faster than SATA SSDs. That is because USB 3.0 is not much faster than SATA SSDs. It is different with USB 3.1 (10Gbps). Then the sequential speed is about double for NVME SSDs but about the same for SATA SSDs. However, to my surprise the random speeds are about the same for both USB 3.0 and USB 3.1. Also, the random speeds are about the same for both SATA and NVME SSDs.

Dawgone!

I never tested that and I have the hardware to do it. I wonder if this has anything to do with the change in the naming scheme. USB 3.0 no longer "officially" exists. I certainly don't disagree, I just never paid attention. Yeah, I have a couple of the regular M.2 sticks kicking around too. I don't have them in anything atm but perhaps they'll come in use for "upgrading" some laptops one day. TBH I hate working on laptops. My eyes aren't what they used to be and they're such a pain to crack open — especially these newer designs.

Flashorn · Aug 17, 2023

Scannerman said:
Yup. Cheap too.

https://www.amazon.ca/Valuegist-Adapter-Controller-Expansion-MKeyBkey/dp/B08M3VTY6D/ref=sr_1_7?crid=1DTAI5CGF0SKH&keywords=m.2%2Bsata%2Bexpansion%2Bcard&qid=1692224309&sprefix=m.2%2Bexpan%2Caps%2C196&sr=8-7&th=1

Yes , I see but, wouldn't that still be in way of other components as it is an expansion card and would have to be placed
in a PCIe slot or not?

Flashorn · Aug 17, 2023

Scannerman said:
This old unit handles M.2, U.2, and NVMe just fine. I really don't know what the benefit of standard M.2 is over standard SATA SSDs. That's why I removed my M.2. SATA is so much easier to remove and install. You can use cards to plug it into PCIe like a sound card or GFX card but it will result in slower performance if you use these cards to extend your NVMe. (It could also cost you a couple of SATA ports.)

I really like the wiring management.

Where OH where do you keep the PC to have it so dusty?
I had to clean out my son-in-law's PC last year and was
comparable to yours as far as dust goes. We eventually
built a platform next to his desk to try and save it from
getting so dusty. I looked at it last week and so far, it seems
to work.
From what I saw on the webs, Corsair's RAM modules are made
by Micron, Samsung, Hynix.

What integrated circuits (ICs) are used on my CORSAIR memory?

CORSAIR memory kits may be built with different integrated circuits (ICs) even if the kits share the same part number. To see what ICs are used in the kit you bought, look at the version number pri...

help.corsair.com

Scannerman · Aug 17, 2023

Flashorn said:
Yes , I see but, wouldn't that still be in way of other components as it is an expansion card and would have to be placed
in a PCIe slot or not?

Yes. The advantage is that you can install the drive directly onto the card before inserting it into a PCIe slot.

I guess it really depends on how crowded the inside of your case is and how neat the cable management.

I'm going to be redoing my case again and when I'm done I don't think they'll be much room for much else.

Getting to my onboard NVMe is going to be real exciting after that lol.

Got one of these coming in:

Flashorn · Aug 17, 2023

Scannerman said:
TBH I hate working on laptops. My eyes aren't what they used to be and they're such a pain to crack open — especially these newer designs

If you can work with what you just posted, notebooks would be a breeze for you.
I have been dismantling them for some time and they are not that hard to do. Just don't
lose any of those small screws or you might just be.
OTH, this one with liquid metal and the fact that you have to re-tork the screws in a certain order
makes it much harder.

I presume that the case is a full tower.

Scannerman · Aug 17, 2023

Flashorn said:
I really like the wiring management.
Where OH where do you keep the PC to have it so dusty?
I had to clean out my son-in-law's PC last year and was
comparable to yours as far as dust goes. We eventually
built a platform next to his desk to try and save it from
getting so dusty. I looked at it last week and so far, it seems
to work.
From what I saw on the webs, Corsair's RAM modules are made
by Micron, Samsung, Hynix.

What integrated circuits (ICs) are used on my CORSAIR memory?

CORSAIR memory kits may be built with different integrated circuits (ICs) even if the kits share the same part number. To see what ICs are used in the kit you bought, look at the version number pri...

help.corsair.com

That was before I moved and there was this dusty gravel road just off my balcony so yeah, that was not very convenient.
(BUT in the winter I got great clock speeds! lol)
I plead gross negligence on my behalf, guilty as charged.

The mechanic's car is never fixed, the painters house could use a coat, and the PC repair guy's PC is always the last to get repaired. lol

Yes. I believe the "B-Die" for the Corsair Dominator (the old stuff) used to be from Samsung.
I really should have kept that chart on file because I can't find it anymore online. They don't want us to know.
Micron also makes good silicon but if I were to buy Micron RAM I'd get it directly from Crucial. (There are reasons for this.)
Even Samsung got caught a couple years back with their hand in the cookie jar, passing off inferior silicon for something other.
According to Buildzoid, Corsair doesn't even deal in binned chips anymore. So much of their RAM these days is garbage. Their Vengance LPX is trash. If you're looking for high performance RAM be prepared to pay for it and always, always, always check to see what kind of silicon you're getting. If you're not familiar with RAM I recommend watching some of Buildzoid's videos on the subject. As an extreme overclocker he has a good grip on quality RAM.

*Gave you a better video here*

Team Group really has been making some impressive advances in RAM.

Flashorn · Aug 17, 2023

Actually , the last one was pretty good and that guy is very knowledgeable
and also pretty funny. I'll take a look at this one a bit latter. I have get some
food in this stomach to stop it from crying out loud.

Scannerman · Aug 17, 2023

Great idea! I'm hungry too. Glad you enjoyed the video(s). Yeah, the kid is brilliant in his own rambling way. Even amusing to some. Wish I could find the video where he gets into serious RAM comparisons and why he's such a B-Die fan.

Dru2 · Aug 17, 2023

BrianInEngland said:
I've never seen an actual board with a U.2 slot

Here you go.... my Gigabyte GA-Z270X-Gaming 8 board....

And no, I don't use them.

Oh, and my Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Xtreme (system specs) has 3 M.2 slots, and I use 2 for NVMe drives - OS, and Photos. No sleep lost for effort to remove them... whenever that may be.

MisterEd · Aug 17, 2023

Scannerman said:
Dawgone! I never tested that and I have the hardware to do it. I wonder if this has anything to do with the change in the naming scheme. USB 3.0 no longer "officially" exists. I certainly don't disagree, I just never paid attention. Yeah, I have a couple of the regular M.2 sticks kicking around too. I don't have them in anything atm but perhaps they'll come in use for "upgrading" some laptops one day. TBH I hate working on laptops. My eyes aren't what they used to be and they're such a pain to crack open — especially these newer designs.

Actually I was a bit mistaken about laptops. Once inside it is easy to replace SSDs. However, many laptops are hard to open up to get at the drives. Even though I have done it a few times it takes 20+ minutes to open my Acer Swift 3 laptop. I can do better with my ASUS TUF Gaming laptop and can open it up in 5-10 minutes. That is still much harder than my really old HP and Toshiba laptops. I can open them up in seconds since there is an access door for HDDs on the bottom.

USB standards have become very confusing.
USB 3.2 Gen 1×1 = USB 3.1 Gen1 = USB 3.0 = SuperSpeed USB 5Gbps
USB 3.2 Gen 2×1 = USB 3.1 Gen2 = USB 3.1 = SuperSpeed USB 10Gbps

Now, with USB 4.0 all that doesn't matter. Their speeds are 10Gbps or more depending upon what Gen they are.

It is confusing when the specs say there are USB-A or USB-C connectors but don't say what their speeds are. For example, my Swift 3 laptop implies that the USB-C port is USB 3.0 (5Gbps) but testing shows that it is actually USB 3.1 (10Gbps).

BrianInEngland · Aug 17, 2023

MisterEd said:
Actually I was a bit mistaken about laptops. Once inside it is easy to replace SSDs. However, many laptops are hard to open up to get at the drives. Even though I have done it a few times it takes 20+ minutes to open my Acer Swift 3 laptop. I can do better with my ASUS TUF Gaming laptop and can open it up in 5-10 minutes. That is still much harder than my really old HP and Toshiba laptops. I can open them up in seconds since there is an access door for HDDs on the bottom.

USB standards have become very confusing.
USB 3.2 Gen 1×1 = USB 3.1 Gen1 = USB 3.0 = SuperSpeed USB 5Gbps
USB 3.2 Gen 2×1 = USB 3.1 Gen2 = USB 3.1 = SuperSpeed USB 10Gbps

Now, with USB 4.0 all that doesn't matter. Their speeds are 10Gbps or more depending upon what Gen they are.

It is confusing when the specs say there are USB-A or USB-C connectors but don't say what their speeds are. For example, my Swift 3 laptop implies that the USB-C port is USB 3.0 (5Gbps) but testing shows that it is actually USB 3.1 (10Gbps).

There is USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 as well - 20Gbps

BrianInEngland · Aug 17, 2023

Dru2 said:
Here you go.... my Gigabyte GA-Z270X-Gaming 8 board....

View attachment 68111

And no, I don't use them.

Oh, and my Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Xtreme (system specs) has 3 M.2 slots, and I use 2 for NVMe drives - OS, and Photos. No sleep lost for effort to remove them... whenever that may be.

Looks cool and has loads of IO/PCI slots!

I kind of agree with this article! (Not a question)

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