Let's install Windows 11 on incompatible hardware

spapakons · Aug 9, 2024

I wasn't referring specifically to you. I was referring to everyone with the appropriate knowledge.

TM21 · Aug 14, 2024

It's now August 14, 2024, and I've been running Windows 11/24H2 for many months.
It's been out there for quite some time, for those who just know where to look.

It's a really Great OS! And it came without Cortana, WUDO, UAC and a whole bunch of other MS BS.

TM

mxlexmark2 · Aug 14, 2024

TechnoMage2021 said:
It's now August 14, 2024, and I've been running Windows 11/24H2 for many months.
It's been out there for quite some time, for those who just know where to look.
View attachment 104852
It's a really Great OS! And it came without Cortana, WUDO, UAC and a whole bunch of other MS BS.

TM

I agree. I use it and I am completely satisfied

GotNoRice · Aug 16, 2024

I noticed that the /product server workaround doesn't seem to work anymore with the new 27686.1000 Canary build.

spapakons · Aug 16, 2024

That's a known fact. I think it still works for the Dev versions.

aubergine · Aug 16, 2024

GotNoRice said:
I noticed that the /product server workaround doesn't seem to work anymore with the new 27686.1000 Canary build.

Have you also tried setupprep.exe?

Brink said:
If you need to bypass Windows 11 system requirements, then you can run the command below in an elevated command prompt instead.

<full path of setup.exe file> /product server

For example: D:\setup.exe /product server

If the above command no longer works for you, then try the command below instead:

<full path of setupprep.exe file in sources folder> /product server

For example: D:\sources\setupprep.exe /product server

suatcini54 · Aug 16, 2024

Megahertz said:
Windows Boot manager is to boot a UEFI - GPT drive,
Is the Evo 870 SATA drive also a GPT drive or it is a MBR ?

Sorry for late reply.
Most probably it was in MBR disk partitioning scheme. If the drive is MBR, one can change it to GPT. Before the installation starts, one can use SHIFT+F10 key combination to open command prompt. Then one can convert the drive to GPT with Diskpart utility: Convert GPT.

spapakons · Sep 8, 2024

GusGhanem said:
I used UUP Dump to create an updated ISO of 24H2 build 26100.1591, then used Rufus to create the bootable USB with CPU and TPM bypass, and local account. Very simple.

It is simple if the CPU supports SSE4.2 and PopCnt instruction. If the CPU doesn't support SSE4.2 (such as old Intel Core 2 Duo and similar) we are stuck with 23H2 until some workaround it found. That is if the SSE4.2 requirement is just one more compatibility check and not used in Windows. We bypass the check to install or upgrade and we are OK. I will try it on my test laptop (1st system specs) when the public release of 24H2 comes this October or November and report here. Also the new version boots only in UEFI mode (GPT disk). To install or upgrade a Legacy BIOS (MBR disk) installation we must also replace the bootloader with the 23H2 version. Again I will confirm it and report back.

I like your profile image by the way. I used to play games on C=64 in the 80's. I now play them on Windows using a Commodore 64 emulator. My profile depicts an ancient Greek working on his computer and drinking iced coffee (we called it "frappe" from French word for "shaken").

hsehestedt · Sep 8, 2024

spapakons said:
until some workaround it found.

No workaround will be found. It cannot be done

spapakons · Sep 8, 2024

hsehestedt said:
No workaround will be found. It cannot be done

If the PopCnt instruction is indeed used by the new Windows 11 24H2, then nothing can be done. However I believe Microsoft is bluffing and the PopCnt instruction requirement is just one more restriction to stop people bypassing compatibility check and install Windows 11 on unsupported computers. Think about it. Even 1st generation Intel Core-i3 and higher CPUs have this instruction. The officially supported 8th generation CPUs of course have it. So this new requirement is ridiculous. They did it to discourage installation of Windows 11 on unsupported computers. I will confirm it with my old laptop (1st system specs) that doesn't support PopCnt. If I manage to install 24H2 there, it means Microsoft is bluffing. I will definitely post my results here.

PS: Do you remember the rumours that Windows Vista would not work without a graphics card with WDDM drivers? BS! Of course they work with the Windows XP graphics drivers (aka XPDM mode). You only lose Aero glass effect and some other visual effects. Who cares. Same thing here, claiming we can't install Windows 11 24H2 without the PopCnt instruction. I will reveal the fraud and let you know.

Bree · Sep 8, 2024

spapakons said:
If the PopCnt instruction is indeed used by the new Windows 11 24H2, then nothing can be done. However I believe Microsoft is bluffing and the PopCnt instruction requirement is just one more restriction to stop people bypassing compatibility check and install Windows 11 on unsupported computers.

The PopCnt instruction is, apparently, particularly useful in AI computation. That would appear to be the reason 24H2 now requires it. And it seems to be baked into the kernel code now, so 24H2 can't run without it.

hsehestedt · Sep 8, 2024

spapakons said:
However I believe Microsoft is bluffing

They are not bluffing. I saw an analysis (can't recall by whom), and they found that POPCNT was pervasive in all kinds of files throughout Windows.

Also, the idea that they are doing this just to prevent people from installing on such ancient hardware, in my opinion, is unfounded. Bear in mind that these systems are ALREADY way, way, out of the supported range of systems.

I have zero problem with this move. We eventually need to move on. In fact, I really wish that Microsoft would deprecate a lot more stuff. Microsoft is actually exceptionally patient with support for old hardware. They are about the last ones to get away from 32-bit support. In fact, Apple even stopped supporting all 32-apps in 2019. If you had an app that was not available as a 64-bit app, too bad. It would no longer work. I applaud that.

Yes, I too get frustrated at times when a beloved piece of hardware no longer works. Five minutes later I am over it

hsehestedt · Sep 8, 2024

Follow-up: One additional thought. Microsoft is actually going out of their way to support legacy hardware and software. Extended support is now available even to consumers for Windows 10. So, if you really need it, you have support for your ancient hardware up until what, late 2028 or so? I consider that more than fair. Plus, this gives people a long time to plan.

spapakons · Sep 9, 2024

Having PopCnt used in almost every application it would mean to rewrite that applications including the kernel. Thus means they keep almost no old code lines and rewrite most of the OS, much like Windows 9x family and completely different NT family. I don't think that's the case now, hence the hope they are bluffing. Anyway I mostly use PCs that do have the PopCnt instruction. Only my test laptop doesn't, so the "disaster" is minimum. No, I don't agree to make everything obsolete. Microsoft would severely shrink their user base and let competitors like Apple and Linux get a much larger share. It would be a TOTALLY STUPID move. Microsoft is not Apple, thanks God! They have much more brains. You may not have any issues with radical changes because you can afford buying a new computer every 3-5 years, but not everyone can afford it. If the current computer meets their needs, why replace it? Unlike Apple's planned obsolescence, Microsoft doesn't force us replace our computers, at least not so frequently.

SlicEnDicE · Sep 9, 2024

Apple doesn't force you to replace anything. You can run an Apple computer beyond 5 years. But with laptops a 3-5 year replacement cycle makes sense for someone who use their device for work. Nothing abnormal about that and it makes no difference if it's a Mac, Windows or Linux laptop.

PopCnt instruction speeds up things drastically. And it does not mean every app must use it directly, but on the OS level it makes a lot of sense. Besides, if PopCnt is missing from a CPU in 2024, it is considered ancient and obsolete.

We can't be stretching non-obsolence forever. Technology evolve and at some point we have to evolve with it, whether we like it or not.

spapakons · Sep 10, 2024

Yes, Apple forces you replace your Apple computer since eventually it won't be eligible for the next Mac OS version. Most applications require at least Mac OS X 10.15 Catalina at the moment. All Mac computers that cannot be upgraded to at least Mac OS X 10.5 are stuck with older versions and eventually they will be useless. Imagine a PC stuck at XP and not allowed to upgrade to 7 or higher although the hardware is powerful enough to handle it! If you have an Intel CPU, you have alternatives, you abandon Mac OS and install Windows or Linux. The new Apple Silicon Macs cannot install anything but Mac OS, they did it on purpose, so you have no choice but replace them. If this is not planned obsolesce, what it is? At least Microsoft allows you to install a version of Windows in all computers that can handle it. This includes installing Windows 11 in older computers with SSE4.2 (such as my 3rd generation Intel Core-i7) bypassing compatibility check. They didn't block it completely.

garlin · Sep 10, 2024

spapakons said:
Having PopCnt used in almost every application it would mean to rewrite that applications including the kernel. Thus means they keep almost no old code lines and rewrite most of the OS, much like Windows 9x family and completely different NT family. I don't think that's the case now, hence the hope they are bluffing. Anyway I mostly use PCs that do have the PopCnt instruction. Only my test laptop doesn't, so the "disaster" is minimum.

There's a lot of misconceptions. MS isn't rewriting code just to randomly insert POPCNT instructions.

With any modern compiler, you can set the executable code's target instruction set. This determines whether the compiler is allowed to use newer CPU extensions, or preserve compatibility with older CPU's by only using the oldest CPU instructions available. Allowing newer CPU instructions will result in much better run-time performance. So the developer weighs the trade-off of best performance vs. backwards compatibility.

By changing the compiler's flags, the output file derived from the same source code is no longer supported on an older CPU. For many open source projects, it's common to see a random comment "dropping support for old [XYZ] CPU's." What they're doing is re-targeting the compiler.

Since the source code is unchanged, MS doesn't introduce the possibility of creating a new bug. MS knows exactly what they're doing, it's a "soft" way of locking out older PC's. If they wanted, they could shift the target instruction set (again) and obsolete another batch of CPU's.

spapakons · Sep 10, 2024

In Greek we say "short psalm Hallelujah" meaning "we are about to find out soon". When Windows 24H2 is out I will first test it on a virtual machine to see how easy is to upgrade from 23H2 or do a clean installation. I will deliberately try some unsupported scenarios such as Legacy BIOS mode (to confirm if the new bootloader supports UEFI only and if you can boot in Legacy BIOS mode by replacing it with the 23H2 version). When I discover some workaround I will post at the relevant threads. I will then attempt to clean install 24H2 on my test laptop (1st system specs, no SSE4.2 support) by using a hybrid 23H2/24H2 USB to bypass the PopCnt compatibility check. If I do succeed, I will confirm Microsoft was bluffing and 24H2 can run on CPUs without 24H2. Of course I will report it in all relevant threads! After I play a little with 24H2 and fix some minor bugs, I will upgrade my main PC (2nd system specs, it supports SSE4.2). Whatever I discover I will share with you. I bet 70% Microsoft is bluffing 30% SSE4.2 is indeed required.

hsehestedt · Sep 10, 2024

spapakons said:
In Greek we say "short psalm Hallelujah" meaning "we are about to find out soon". When Windows 24H2 is out I will first test it on a virtual machine to see how easy is to upgrade from 23H2 or do a clean installation. I will deliberately try some unsupported scenarios such as Legacy BIOS mode (to confirm if the new bootloader supports UEFI only and if you can boot in Legacy BIOS mode by replacing it with the 23H2 version). When I discover some workaround I will post at the relevant threads. I will then attempt to clean install 24H2 on my test laptop (1st system specs, no SSE4.2 support) by using a hybrid 23H2/24H2 USB to bypass the PopCnt compatibility check. If I do succeed, I will confirm Microsoft was bluffing and 24H2 can run on CPUs without 24H2. Of course I will report it in all relevant threads! After I play a little with 24H2 and fix some minor bugs, I will upgrade my main PC (2nd system specs, it supports SSE4.2). Whatever I discover I will share with you. I bet 70% Microsoft is bluffing 30% SSE4.2 is indeed required.

I'm not trying to argue for sake of arguing here, but don't we already know all of this already? We have the Release Preview builds which are essentially as close to the finished product as you can get. So, we already know that 24H2 is not working on CPUs without the SSE4.2 instruction set and we already know that it is working fine on Legacy BIOS based systems (with appropriate workarounds to bypass Secure Boot requirement).

If I'm missing something, by all means please feel free to correct me. I get stuff wrong often enough that I serve as my own greatest source of amusement

spapakons · Sep 10, 2024

They don't run "vanilla" (without hacks) on older CPUs without SSE4.2 Has anyone tried any workarounds with the Insider's 24H2 version on such old hardware? Which workarounds? Please share. I am just waiting for the general release before doing my experiment. If I am successful, I would like to keep it and I prefer keeping a stable release than a beta product.

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