Modern Standby - Scheduled Tasks

Thanks to all for responses, greatly appreciated. Still absorbing to put together a proper response that addresses everything so far but wanted to post briefly to say that I did test WOL and it did NOT work for me. I confirmed my system supports that (including the dock) and was configured correctly for WOL. Presumably for the same reasons 'wake from sleep' doesn't work, in S0 idle mode the NIC *is* still awake, so wake on lan apps all see it that way and/or a magic packet arriving at the NIC doesn't change the S0 idle state. It's fun to see the return of ping tests from another machine from the one in S0 idle. S0 idle *looks* a LOT like S3 sleep on my Lenovo laptop but a machine in S3 sleep wouldn't return a ping result. And it could be woken up by a magic packet of course assuming the NIC supported it and was configured correctly etc.

hsehestedt said:

In the meantime, just one question, more out of curiosity...

Is there a reason why you are using Modern Standby in the evening rather than shutting the system down or placing it into hibernation? Please don't misunderstand, I'm just curious and ask only because that scenario might be "easier". Also, just for me personally, I usually use modern standby anytime I plan to use the computer within the next few hours, but at the end of the day I shutdown.

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Sure not a terrible idea, especially if the machine were docked on my LAN where it writes the backups every day. But it isn't. It's there every night (or most nights) though, so that's when I schedule the backups. If/when the machine is not docked on my LAN I don't attempt or care about backups since that condition never goes on for more than a few days or max a few weeks, ie when traveling.

The hibernation idea is a good one, especially since reading your further post, it appears this may be the key to getting a scheduled task to run while still keeping S0 enabled. I will definitely be checking that out. I have no problem with hibernation, in fact I consider it essential to keep enabled for when the machine is on battery for any extended period of time. Looking now I had just assumed the machine would in fact default to going into hibernation if/when it ran too low when on battery but it looks like hibernation isn't enabled by Lenovo by default. Wow. So if/when the machine runs out of power when on battery it will just crash while in windows? Good god, hard for me to believe they'd ship a machine like that. Will definitely be investigating that further as well, glad you mentioned hibernation.

Try3 said:

That's the problem. That puts S0 Modern standby into one of its later phases during which Task scheduler cannot initiate user tasks.

I'm able to do so.
I discovered the method a year ago and posted it in this forum [See my next para, which is based on my post #2 which HDMI mentioned above.].
I have used the method on three different S0 Modern standby computers from three different manufacturers [Chuwi, HP, Lenovo].

My 'running scripts' post includes the batch file containing the commands that I use to rouse an S0 Modern standby computer into the state that allows tasks to run, such as your backup task.
- This script runs on the S0 Modern standby computer alone. It does not need any other computer to help it.
I know you do not want to use this method but it's the only one I have found.

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Yes thank you, I know you're the one who has spent the most time figuring out all this stuff.

I admit I'm a bit confused about some of the concepts with using your commands in a batch file to rouse an S0 modern standby computer into the state that allows tasks to run.

First, am I correct that for this to work, 'Put the computer to sleep' MUST be set to 'Never'?

If so I don't really understand the need for such a script since once I do that scheduled tasks will simply run normally, at least with 'Turn of the display' *also* set to 'Never'. Didn't try with it still enabled since as I understand it this is what will let the machine go into lowest power mode from which few things can rouse it?

Hopefully I'm missing something here. If it's possible to leave S0, sleep and display off enabled on my machine and simply run some kind of batch file I'll be happy. In that case does the batch file run all the time? As you can see I'm missing pieces of the puzzle here.

I wonder if you were leaving your display on with your computer in S0 [the running state] and that was why the fans were on.
By allowing the display to go off [hence S0 Modern standby to start], I never find my fans running in S0 Modern standby. Because there is heat generated during S0 Modern standby, I never put my computers into a confined space unless I have done a full shutdown or sometimes when hibernating.
You can look in Event viewer to see power state changes such as S0 Modern standby. You can import the Event viewer, Custom view definition I use - see Importing EV, CV - my post #23 - ElevenForum

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Yep, I did set 'turn of the display' to never in that case since I thought I had to along with setting 'Put the computer to sleep' to never to get scheduled tasks to run. They did but I didn't like the result of setting both those options.

And you might also find this of interest.

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Yes I should probably investigate attempting to disable S0 with the Windows tweaks and see if S3 suport magically appears on my Lenovo, keeping in mind the bios has no user configurable sleep settings. I'm not optimistic about the results of doing that and will, as you advise, be prepared to restore a backup but I should probably look into trying it.

hdmi said:

Why not? AFAIK setting it to never is still the only way to avoid troubles. When the screen turns off, that's when the computer enters a Modern Standby session, and, this should happen regardless of whether sleep was set to never. According to the first link in post #2, setting sleep to never and modifying your script that your scheduled task runs could be a solution that works. This modification makes the script simulate a keystroke so as to end the Modern Standby session before the backup task is started.

If the fact that it ends the Modern Standby session is a concern to you, then you could always decide to add another modification to your script, i.e. to make the computer enter another Modern Standby session after the backup job finishes. Again, this is possible by making your script wait for completion of the backup before the script proceeds with turning the screen off, like so: Add "Turn off display" Context Menu in Windows 11 Tutorial

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Thank you for those thoughts, I do need to investigate these possibilities I wasn't aware of and hadn't considered.

I didn't like the combination of setting sleep to never *and* never turning the display off. Maybe I didn't need to do both of those and/or can avoid at least never turning the display off.

A little more on Lenovo hibernation. I ran into this while searching.

Lenovo Smart Standby Driver for Windows 11 (Version 21H2 or later)
...
Support Smart Standby in AC mode.

The computer will be scheduled to enter hibernation to optimize power savings even when AC power adapter is connected.
...

I noticed my windows services show 'Lenovo Smart Standby' is running.

Maybe this handles automagically putting the machine into hibernation as necessary while taking that manual control away from the user?

Further confusion and consternation.

Looks like my machine does in fact support hibernation despite those controls being missing in Control Panel\Hardware and Sound\Power Options\Edit Plan Settings, Change advanced power settings.

Not sure if that's normal/expected or not.

C:\Windows\System32>powercfg /a
The following sleep states are available on this system:
Standby (S0 Low Power Idle) Network Connected
Hibernate
Fast Startup

The following sleep states are not available on this system:
Standby (S1)
The system firmware does not support this standby state.
This standby state is disabled when S0 low power idle is supported.

Standby (S2)
The system firmware does not support this standby state.
This standby state is disabled when S0 low power idle is supported.

Standby (S3)
The system firmware does not support this standby state.
This standby state is disabled when S0 low power idle is supported.

Hybrid Sleep
Standby (S3) is not available.
The hypervisor does not support this standby state.

I suppose I could (maybe) test seeing what happens if I disable the Lenovo Smart Standby service.....

Interestingly it looks like Lenovo at one time did give users some control over what they call 'Smart Standby'

Wonder if any of that stuff still works on Win 11 and on machines not directly supported at the time.

dabl said:

A little more on Lenovo hibernation. I ran into this while searching.

Lenovo Smart Standby Driver for Windows 11 (Version 21H2 or later)
...
Support Smart Standby in AC mode.

The computer will be scheduled to enter hibernation to optimize power savings even when AC power adapter is connected.
...

I noticed my windows services show 'Lenovo Smart Standby' is running.

Maybe this handles automagically putting the machine into hibernation as necessary while taking that manual control away from the user?

Further confusion and consternation.

Looks like my machine does in fact support hibernation despite those controls being missing in Control Panel\Hardware and Sound\Power Options\Edit Plan Settings, Change advanced power settings.

Not sure if that's normal/expected or not.

C:\Windows\System32>powercfg /a
The following sleep states are available on this system:
Standby (S0 Low Power Idle) Network Connected
Hibernate
Fast Startup

The following sleep states are not available on this system:
Standby (S1)
The system firmware does not support this standby state.
This standby state is disabled when S0 low power idle is supported.

Standby (S2)
The system firmware does not support this standby state.
This standby state is disabled when S0 low power idle is supported.

Standby (S3)
The system firmware does not support this standby state.
This standby state is disabled when S0 low power idle is supported.

Hybrid Sleep
Standby (S3) is not available.
The hypervisor does not support this standby state.

I suppose I could (maybe) test seeing what happens if I disable the Lenovo Smart Standby service.....

Interestingly it looks like Lenovo at one time did give users some control over what they call 'Smart Standby'

Wonder if any of that stuff still works on Win 11 and on machines not directly supported at the time.

Click to expand...

My Asus TUF Gaming F16 (2024) laptop has a similar feature in Armoury Crate:

hdmi said:

Isn't the WiFi card that is inside the Lenovo Thinkbook 13x Gen2 an Intel AX201 card?

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It has an AX211 (WiFi 6e). But this laptop will not do WoWAN, no way, no how. The properties for this adapter does not even have a Power Management tab so there is no possibility to even set options there. Also, I do see that GTK relaying is enabled by default and there is no setting related to offloading GTK relaying.

In any case, I already confirmed with Lenovo that WoWLAN is not going to happen on this machine.

Testing update: When in hibernation mode, my system wakes up just fine from a scheduled event, even with the lid closed in both AC connected and running on batteries scenario.

However, at least on my system, it will not run the scheduled task if in Modern Standby or powered off completely.

So, for me, the only option is hibernation.

But there is one other option: What about simply leaving the laptop running, maybe with the screen just shutting off? Laptops use very little power when idle.

Another option: Allow the machine to stay on until the backup is run, then run a command to allow it to enter Modern Standby AFTER the backup has completed.

dabl said:

First, am I correct that for this to work, 'Put the computer to sleep' MUST be set to 'Never'?

Click to expand...

Yes.

dabl said:

If so I don't really understand the need for such a script since once I do that scheduled tasks will simply run normally

Click to expand...

dabl said:

at least with 'Turn of the display' *also* set to 'Never'

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I just set Sleep after to Never.
I set Display off after to whatever I want [2 mins]. It's the display turning off that initiates S0 Modern standby.
That combination allows S0 Modern standby to remain in an early phase that allows Task scheduler to start user tasks.

dabl said:

In that case does the batch file run all the time?

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Yes, whenever Task scheduler tells it to. The particular commands I use at the start of my batch file rouse the computer from S0 Modern standby into a running state. I use those commands at the start of all the tasks I run from Task scheduler.
This is taken from a current script:
Set VBSScript="%TEMP%\%RANDOM%-RouseMonitor.vbs"
Echo WScript.CreateObject("WScript.Shell").SendKeys "{F14}">>%VBSScript%
Echo WScript.CreateObject("WScript.Shell").SendKeys "{F14}">>%VBSScript%
::::::::: This is where I put some other vbs commands that I want to run when the monitor comes back on [I like to use speech commands to announce being roused from S0 Modern standby].
Call %VBSScript%
del %VBSScript%
:::::::::: This is where I put the other batch commands, such as running the backup, when roused from S0 Modern standby.

dabl said:

Maybe I didn't need to do both of those and/or can avoid at least never turning the display off.

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Yes, you must allow the display to turn off or you'll stay in a full power mode forever.
- I avoided a lot of power consumption by letting S0 Modern standby kick in.
- You do have the option of keeping the display on all the time in order to avoid S0 Modern standby altogether but you'll have to pay for that electricity.

hsehestedt said:

But there is one other option: What about simply leaving the laptop running, maybe with the screen just shutting off? Laptops use very little power when idle.

Click to expand...

I did, for a while, experiment with keeping the display on yet allowing the screensaver to make it look blank. I never tried to measure the power that it used under those conditions.

dabl said:

Support Smart Standby

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I don't have that available [my Lenovo is an IdeaPad].

dabl said:

This standby state is disabled when S0 low power idle is supported.

Click to expand...

I think that line in the results implies that you might be successful in disabling S0 Modern standby to enable S3 Sleep.

dabl said:

as you advise, be prepared to restore a backup

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And do test your imaging utility boot disk in case your computer reacts as badly as the example I reported.

hsehestedt said:

So, for me, the only option is hibernation.

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That's what I did, for several years, until I discovered the Sleep after - never method.


All the best,
Denis

Try3 said:

That's what I did, for several years, until I discovered the Sleep after - never method.

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Yeah, on my computer that is a no go. My computer never enters some "deeper sleep" mode. If my laptop enters Modern Standby it will remain in Modern Standby until 5% battery is used during Modern Standby, then it will hibernate. There is a registry entry that can be changed to change that 5% to something else.

On my laptop, 5% will get me through an entire night, easily.

Even if I set seep to never, the only way to run a scheduled task is if the system is in hibernation. It will not run the task from S0.

EDIT: Let me put this another way: Although Modern Standy is technically NOT sleeping, sleep on my computer equals Modern Standby.

hsehestedt said:

Even if I set seep to never

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And you are letting it enter S0 Modern standby by letting power options turn the display off?
I have not experienced the limitation you have.

hsehestedt said:

There is a registry entry that can be changed to change that 5% to something else.

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Just out of interest, what is that Registry entry?
I'd like to see if it has a corresponding PowerCfg -qh entry, as many such Registry entries do.


All the best,
Denis

Again thanks for all the great input and ideas, I have way more options now than I did yesterday.

One other thing I discovered is on my machine Wise Auto Shutdown and/or a log off in that app set for 3am causes my machine to NOT go into S0 idle/low power mode, it stays awake and the monitor off still works. Not sure yet if that is what I want but it's yet another option to use.

dabl said:

causes my machine to NOT go into S0 idle/low power mode, it stays awake and the monitor off still works

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If it is not in S0 Modern standby while the display is off, what does Event viewer say the power state is?


Denis

Try3 said:

And you are letting it enter S0 Modern standby by letting power options turn the display off?
I have not experienced the limitation you have.

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Yes

Try3 said:

Just out of interest, what is that Registry entry?

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Denis, I'm not back at my primary system where I'm pretty sure I have documented that setting. Bear with me and I'll get that to you as soon as I can.

BTW, thanks for all your insight into this. This is a wealth of good information.

Try3 said:

If it is not in S0 Modern standby while the display is off, what does Event viewer say the power state is?


Denis

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I'll need to review that.

LOL. I forgot that I have my flash drive with me that has a copy of ALL of my software, drivers, documents, etc. Included are my notes for this laptop. Below are the notes that I wrote for myself regarding this. Also, I remembered incorrectly, it is not a registry setting, it is adjusted via powercfg. Ultimately, that may set a registry setting, but I don't know that for sure.


* Notes About Modern Standby *

This system employs Modern Standby. Modern standby includes a feature known as "Adaptive Hibernate" which is described below. One of the settings for Adaptive Hibernate, allows the system to stay in the standby state until the battery charge level drops by 5%. You may want to adjust this to allow the system to remain in standby state for a longer period of time. Please see the details below.

* Adaptive Hibernate *

NOTE: Windows has a 15-minute grace period before either of these triggers are applied. This is to ensure that the system does not rapidly transition into hibernate.

StandbyBudgetPercent: Defines the battery drain % that the user is allowed in a standby session. Default is 5%.

powercfg /setdcvalueindex scheme_current sub_presence standbybudgetpercent <Value in percet>

StandbyReserveTime: Defines the screen on time, in seconds, that will be available to the user after standby exits and the screen turns on. Default is 1200 seconds.

powercfg /setdcvalueindex scheme_current sub_presence standbyreservetime <Value in seconds>

The StandbyBudgetPercent and StandbyReserveTime power values are hidden by default. You may list all power values using the command powercfg /Qh from an elevated command prompt.

Standby Budget Per Cent is specifically GUID 9fe527be-1b70-48da-930d-7bcf17b44990.

Standby Reserve Time is specifically GUID 468fe7e5-1158-46ec-88bc-5b96c9e44fd0.

Thanks.

I've heard the term Standby Budget before but not the other ones.

By the way, PowerCfg -qh does not need elevation [you'll get the same results either way].


Night,
Denis

hsehestedt said:

Windows has a 15-minute grace period

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If it's of any interest, I believe that the grace period is also adjustable.



Denis

Try3 said:

By the way, PowerCfg -qh does not need elevation [you'll get the same results either way].

Click to expand...

Thanks. Yeah, when I'm not sure, I tend to say to do it from an elevated prompt just to be on the safe side.

hsehestedt said:

It has an AX211 (WiFi 6e). But this laptop will not do WoWAN, no way, no how. The properties for this adapter does not even have a Power Management tab so there is no possibility to even set options there. Also, I do see that GTK relaying is enabled by default and there is no setting related to offloading GTK relaying.

In any case, I already confirmed with Lenovo that WoWLAN is not going to happen on this machine.

Click to expand...

The reason why the Power Management tab is absent is simply because your laptop doesn't support S3 Sleep. On my Medion laptop I get to choose between supporting Modern Standby and supporting S3 Sleep, i.e. by choosing to apply the PlatformAoAcOverride registry setting. So, the Power Management tab is present only after this registry setting is applied. As for the Advanced tab, for the AX211 normally AFAIK it should be this:

• 802.11a/b/g Wireless Mode
• 802.11n/ac/ax Wireless Mode
• ARP offload for WoWLAN
• Channel Width for 2.4GHz
• Channel Width for 5GHz
• Channel Width for 6GHz
• Fat Channel Intolerant
• GTK rekeying for WoWLAN
• MIMO Power Save Mode
• Mixed Mode Protection
• NS offload for WoWLAN
• Packet Coalescing
• Preferred Band
• Roaming Aggressiveness
• Sleep on WoWLAN Disconnect
• Throughput Booster
• Transmit Power
• U-APSD support
• Wake on Magic Packet
• Wake on Pattern Match