planning to replace my 1TB "spinning" hard disk drive

FrankW · Aug 29, 2022

Try3 said:
Frank,

I just got hold of a brand new uninitialised disk.

I deliberately left it uninitialised so I could test system image recovery on it.
1 Acronis True image could not restore a disk image to it. It could not see it as an available target disk; it could not see it at all.
2 Macrium reflect could see the uninitialised disk and did successfully restore a system image to it.
I don't have any Windows backup & restore system images so I could not test that.

I now believe that those tiny red down-arrows you illustrated all that time ago are indicators of a need to right-click & carry out some obligatory action. In my case it was right-click & initialise.
View attachment 37586

Now I've got to clear the disk out so I can do what I actually wanted with it.
Fortunately, I have MiniTool Partition Wizard & EaseUS Partition Master because Disk mgmt cannot delete its EFI & recovery partitions.

All the best,
Denis

Hi Denis
To get back to the Windows image recovery process that I intend to do even if I go for a 2.5" SATA EVO SSD:
Apparently WinPE (Windows recovery using USB thumb drive) has a (rigid) HDD convention:
Acer forum: "By the way, the external USB drive should be larger than the source hard drive. You can create/store only one Windows recovery image from a PC on one external drive if more images are stored on the same drive you have to change the computer name for each image created otherwise your image file won't be found by WinPE."

W8 forum Tutorial: You can only do a system image recovery to a HDD or SSD that is the same size or larger than the one(s) included in the system image when it was created.
Re-image your computer, restore options:
3) Not grayed out and unselected
Here you have the option to select format the whole disk and repartition or not. In this case the disk the image was taken from has a matching partition structure to the disk you are restoring the image to. By not selecting the format and repartition option your image will be restored and other partitions untouched such as valuable data partitions. I want to select "format the whole disk and repartition" if this option will show up (source and target drives don't have a matching partition structure, option may be grayed out)?

My source drive capacity is: 930.4 GB (824.48 GB free)
My mechanical target drive capacity is: 931.5 GB (empty, not yet formatted), the 1 TB SSD EVO capacity is also 931 GB (usable)

I think I am OK with all this, any comments?
Frank

Ghot · Aug 29, 2022

@FrankW

With all that free space on your hard drive, you can shrink your Windows partition down to something like 300GB.
THEN image or clone it. It's much easier that way.

If the hard drive is starting to fail, then shrinking it would not be a good idea.

You also have the option to just image or clone the entire disk.
A 1TB hard drive will fit on a 1TB SSD.

FrankW · Aug 29, 2022

Ghot said:
A 1TB hard drive will fit on a 1TB SSD.

Thanks, that's what I was not sure of. Will keep shrinking windows volume down as a last resort because of "Uncorrectable Errors: 14" issue; it may be a bad sector that I never use. I don't see any difference between cloning and full disk recovery oher than that EaseUS free does not include cloning.

Ghot · Aug 29, 2022

FrankW said:
Thanks, that's what I was not sure of. Will keep shrinking windows volume down as a last resort because of "Uncorrectable Errors: 14" issue; it may be a bad sector that I never use. I don't see any difference between cloning and full disk recovery oher than that EaseUS free does not include cloning.

One of the reasons I use Macrium Reflect (free or paid), is that it has a tool called: "Fix Windows boot problems", on it's bootable rescue media.. The rescue media also lets you access backups outside of Windows.

You can just make an image of the entire hard drive, then put the SSD in the comp, and use the rescue media to restore your disk image... to the SSD. I always do it that way.

Then once it's finished, if it doesn't boot, you can use the "Fix Windows boot problems" tool on the rescue media.

And you'll still have the hard drive... if you still can't get things working, you can just put the hard drive back in.

To "clone" a drive, you need to be able to hook both drives up at the same time.

If you "image" a drive, you only need to hook drive one up at a time.
Assuming you have someplace to store the image. You can't store the image on the same drive you're... imaging.
Usually people use an external drive or another internal drive, for storing the image.

Bree · Aug 29, 2022

FrankW said:
IMO your method is slower with an older (internal) mechanical HDD as it involves:

Running Windows 11 OS with Macrium, or other program on the internal HDD, that requires experience/correct settings vs. mini WinPE that runs on a USB thumb drive.

Extra transfer of 100s GB of data from your internal HDD and cache through a 2nd USB interface/cables to the target drive.

The 256GB image of the old HDD had been made to an external usb3 HDD. However I restored it that would have been the slowest link in the chain and therefore the limiting factor. Any caching Windows may have done when reading the image from the external HDD would have been to RAM.

No special experience is needed to run Macrium Reflect from its recovery boot usb. It's the same software and the UI is identical whether running in Windows or WinPE/WinRE.

FrankW said:
Possible ambiguity with the C: or D: naming when installing and booting the new internal drive?

No ambiguity there. Macrium just restores the partitions, it doesn't assign them any drive letters. When booting from the restored drive they will all have their correct drive letters assigned to them by the OS that will be running.

Try3 · Aug 29, 2022

Frank,

FrankW said:
what are the cons and pros restoring a blank drive internally

FrankW said:
You mean fit the blank initialized drive first, boot with the recovery USB thumb drive and restore from the external drive with the backup?

There isn't really a con to this.
I prefer to restore to a new drive while it's external merely so that I know everything is ready to go before I go through the hassle of fitting it [18 screws & all].

SIW2 said:
It should have the same os letter that it had when you made the image. Not every windows installation has os letter C.

Frank, do note that SIW2 is correct. Some configurations can end up with Windows allocating a different drive letter for the OS drive.
The last time I saw that on one of my computers was in 2014-15.
I believe that SIW2's description of the relevant circumstances is also correct.

FrankW said:
Possible ambiguity with the C: or D: naming when installing and booting the new internal drive?

No, you would not have to worry about that. The restored image dictates the drive letter [i.e. the drive letter that Windows allocated to the OS drive when the image was made will be allocated to the OS drive when you boot from it].

FrankW said:
I am now in favor of a 2.5" SATA SSD like Bree just installed, if it stays cool.....

These are my SSD temperatures in my cramped ultra slim laptop that only has 1 fan [in the UK, house temperature about 20C, it's a lovely day].

{25C, OS disk, internal M.2 SATA SSD. 27C, data disk, internal 2.5in SATA SSD.]

FrankW said:
weird that Acer Support (Philippines) never mentioned this 2.5" SSD SATA as an option, maybe they are still testing it

Frank, you have great generosity of spirit. If they did not mention it then they misunderstood your question or didn't give a monkey's about you.

FrankW said:
Apparently WinPE (Windows recovery using USB thumb drive) has a (rigid) HDD convention

I do not know if that can restore to an uninitialised disk - I think one of your earlier posts said you had initialised it anyway.
Since you also made a Macrium reflect disk image, you could use that if it was still uninitialised.

FrankW said:
the external USB drive should be larger than the source hard drive

Their statement is poorly worded & invites misinterpretation.
- For the Windows own system image utility, the target disk for restoring the system image needs to be as big or bigger than the disk from which the image was made.
- For Macrium Reflect [& others], the target disk for restoring the system image needs to be as big or bigger than the amount of space that was used in the disk from which the image was made.
My statements are true whether the disk is connected by USB or internally; it makes no difference.

FrankW said:
My source drive capacity is: 930.4 GB (824.48 GB free)
My mechanical target drive capacity is: 931.5 GB (empty, not yet formatted), the 1 TB SSD EVO capacity is also 931 GB (usable)
I think I am OK with all this, any comments?

Yes, you are okay. Even the Windows own system image can cope with a replacement drive that is the same size as the original disk.
Even if it gave you problems, Macrium would come to your rescue because your used space is a lot less than 930GB.
Once again, I am referring to Macrium because I think you said you'd already made a Macrium Reflect disk image as well. If not then I urge you to do so right now.

FrankW said:
You can create/store only one Windows recovery image from a PC on one external drive if more images are stored on the same drive you have to change the computer name for each image created

Whilst I no longer use Windows own system imaging and do not want to encourage you to do so, that statement is utter rubbish.
There are lots of ways to manage multiple Windows system images on an external disk.
- What I used to do was make the image then create a folder with a name like 20200829 or 20200829-1 then move the whole of the image's folder [which has a name like WindowsImageBackup] into 20200829.
- Then, if I ever wanted to restore an image, I would copy the whole of the relevant WindowsImageBackup folder back to the root of the external disk [i.e. where it had originally been made].
- You can build up a whole library of old images that way - I keep the images from my current Version 21H2, the latest image from 21H1, ... and I would do that even if I was still using Windows' own imaging utility.
- What's important is always moving/copying the whole of the WindowsImageBackup folder not bits within it. If you ever alter any of its innards then you might as well assume that it is broken beyond repair.

FrankW said:
Will keep shrinking windows volume down

Don't bother.

And another thing

By the way, the various comments about utilities for fixing boot problems are correct but incomplete.
- There are boot problem fixing tools on both the Macrium Reflect boot disk you could boot from to restore a Macrium Reflect image & the Windows installation disk you'd boot from to restore a Windows' own system image.
- You can use the boot problem fixing tools whether or not you intend to go on to restore an image. They are independent tools.
- I have seen Macrium users claim that their boot problem fixing tool is better than the Windows one.

I hope I've covered all your questions,
Best of luck,
Denis

SIW2 · Aug 29, 2022

It is also possible to choose the os letter during the installation process ( win7 and newer os ) . I have done it often.
I don't know a practical way to change it after the installation setup phase is complete.

1. apply the image to a partition.

2. load the system hive from the apllied image and put in your desired osletter into the mounted devices key with the volumevalue.

3. Boot into the applied image for the setup phase to do its thing.

Thats all folks. I have a liitle script for it, but you can do it manually

SIW2 · Aug 29, 2022

I am currently booted into C and just about to apply an image to J

I am lazy so will whack the image onto J with dism++. you can use something else

After applying the image with dism or similar, get the volume value of the partition you have just applied the image to.

It was applied to J , so the next thing is to get the volumevalue of j which you can find in your current mounted devices key

then use regedit (or a 3rd party registry editor ) to load the system hive from the image you have just applied.

The image was just applied to J, so we load J:\windows\system32\config\System hive

and give it any name
I named it loaded-system

Create a New Key in loaded-system called MountedDevices and paste the copied value

Left like that the os will call itself J when booted, so I have changed it to X for a bit of fun

Unload the hive

Then boot into the applied image for the setup phase.

And like magic:

SIW2 · Aug 29, 2022

for the manual gui method:

You could instead use windows regedit, export the current mounteddevices key , then open the reg file in notepad, change it to loaded-system, delete all the values except the one you want and then merge it.

easier to use another reg editor. Download Products | www.torchsoft.com

I think Dalchina knows of a different one . Cant remember what it is called, might not even have been Dalchina. I am quite forgetful.

NavyLCDR · Aug 29, 2022

The number of different directions this thread has taken:

SIW2 · Aug 30, 2022

An opportunity for inquiring minds to learn something.

Try3 · Aug 30, 2022

SIW2 said:
An opportunity for inquiring minds to learn something.

But surely they'd be of much more benefit in a thread of their own rather than in this one.

All the best,
Denis

glasskuter · Aug 30, 2022

Thanks @Try3 for doing that test. I've always thought that was how Macrium worked but never bought a new drive since I've been using it. Now we know for sure.
SSDs and Macrium rock!!!!!

TM21 · Sep 13, 2022

I don't get it. After all these years, some folks still don't get the simple task of CLONING an old drive to a new drive.
They want to make something mystical and magical out of the process. Forgetaboutit!

It's actually SO darned Simple! WELL, for me anyway. I just connect the old drive and the new drive to my main PC and run Ghost and do a CLONE from the old drive to the new drive. And in a few minutes, the job is done. Then put the new drive into it's new Home PC.

These days, NOT replacing a spinner with an SSD drive is just plain Foolish! Spinners are slow, noisy, generate a LOT of heat, and they draw a lot of power. For the last couple of years, I've been systematically replacing all my spinners with SSD's. I just use my old spinners for backups, experimentation and door stops.
Cheers Mates!
TM

FrankW · Oct 27, 2022

@NavyLCDR To get back to my original topic:
Finally got to replace my 1TB mechanical HDD with a new 1 TB Sata mechanical HDD!.
Before that I backed up my old HDD after the 27th Oct. W11 22H2 updates with W7 "Create an Image file" and EaseUS Todo "Full Disk Backup" to an external (mechanical) HDD. I Initialized the new drive but not formatted it. after replacement of the drive I booted with USB Windows RE USB flash drive (and had also my external Back-up drive connected), followed the W8 instructions by Brink, the latest Windows image file was immediately found on my USB drive, no questions or ambiguities about drivers or partitions, took 40 minutes to restore and everything works like before (including Outlook Desktop Mapi). I had the EaseUS backup ready in case of problems with the Windows image restore job

cereberus · Oct 27, 2022

Try3 said:
Frank,

I just got hold of a brand new uninitialised disk.

I deliberately left it uninitialised so I could test system image recovery on it.
1 Acronis True image could not restore a disk image to it. It could not see it as an available target disk; it could not see it at all.
2 Macrium reflect could see the uninitialised disk and did successfully restore a system image to it.
I don't have any Windows backup & restore system images so I could not test that.

I now believe that those tiny red down-arrows you illustrated all that time ago are indicators of a need to right-click & carry out some obligatory action. In my case it was right-click & initialise.
View attachment 37586

Now I've got to clear the disk out so I can do what I actually wanted with it.
Fortunately, I have MiniTool Partition Wizard & EaseUS Partition Master because Disk mgmt cannot delete its EFI & recovery partitions.

All the best,
Denis

i just use diskpart from an admin command prompt. Takea less than 2 minutes tops.

Diskpart
Select disk n (n is number of drive)
Clean
Exit

Then initialise it however I want from disk management.

Try3 · Oct 27, 2022

cereberus said:
i just use diskpart from an admin command prompt

Yes.

I was addressing a long chain of comments that focussed on restoring Macrium images so I wanted to tie that down by doing an experiment.
- Macrium Reflect can restore an image to an initialised disk.
- Acronis True Image cannot restore an image to an unitialised disk.

Denis

jimbo45 · Oct 27, 2022

Hi there

@FrankW

Just adding to the conversation here -- because a 1TB makes a very handy size offline backup media etc.

You can buy for about 20-25 EUR a USB 3 powered (supplied external power supply) sata / SATA III connector which will power correctly an external SSD (or spinner). I've tested one of these on a laptop connected via a USB 3 port with a large 16 TB Enterprise grade spinner -- worked perfectly.

So no need to bin the disk.

Amazon UK -- price includes VAT which a lot can get back.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/UNITEK-Converter-Adapter-Cable-Drive/dp/B00GLL41MA/ref=asc_df_B00GLL41MA/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=430752237789&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9104005340726406203&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006816&hvtargid=pla-775202612872&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=108575012348&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=430752237789&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9104005340726406203&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006816&hvtargid=pla-775202612872

cheers
jimbo

Bree · Oct 27, 2022

jimbo45 said:
Just adding to the conversation here -- because a 1TB makes a very handy size offline backup media etc.

You can buy for about 20-25 EUR a USB 3 powered (supplied external power supply) sata / SATA III connector which will power correctly an external SSD (or spinner).

@FrankW won't need one with an external power supply, not if were talking about his Acer Aspire 5 in his specs. I've just done exactly the same, replacing the 1TB HDD with an SSD, for my Acer Aspire 3 (System One). A 2.5" HDD can be powered through the usb cable, so my liberated 1TB HDD now sits in one of these:

https://www.amazon.com/Sabrent-Tool-free-Enclosure-Optimized-EC-UASP/dp/B00OJ3UJ2S

jimbo45 · Oct 27, 2022

Bree said:
@FrankW won't need one with an external power supply, not if were talking about his Acer Aspire 5 in his specs. I've just done exactly the same, replacing the 1TB HDD with an SSD, for my Acer Aspire 3 (System One). A 2.5" HDD can be powered through the usb cable, so my liberated 1TB HDD now sits in one of these:

https://www.amazon.com/Sabrent-Tool-free-Enclosure-Optimized-EC-UASP/dp/B00OJ3UJ2S

Thats fine for 2.5 inch disks -- however I was thinking for larger size (physically) 3.5 inch classical spinners. I find the device I have works fine for a spare 16 TB Toshiba enterprise HDD (got from an office I.T hardware "chuckout") . Enterprise quality disks are usually pretty rugged - and I got it for "If you can get it out of the server -- please take it". - An old School Engineer like me isn't going to have any problem with that type of challenge. !!!!

I use similar to you for a 1TB ssd where I have a load of VM's on it plus a bootable physical Windows system

Cheers
jimbo

planning to replace my 1TB "spinning" hard disk drive

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