Solved Hey hardware guys. Need advice on m.2 drive

Flashorn · Oct 8, 2023

glasskuter said:
yes, I do.

Well, that was unexpected!!

I think, if I'm not mistaken, you would have to install their driver
for it to work as intended.

Scannerman · Oct 9, 2023

Flashorn said:
Well, that was unexpected!!
I think, if I'm not mistaken, you would have to install their driver
for it to work as intended.

You noticed that too, huh?

Is this one of those, "if it ain't broke don't fix it" deals?

glasskuter · Oct 9, 2023

@Flashorn Yeah I noticed that note on the page of the software.

Here's the deal. This system came from Dell with raid on although I do not use raid.
I've read a lot about IRST today and don't mind saying removing it scares the pee-waddling-do out of me. It's not as simple as just changing to AHCI. Intel site says one can uninstall the IRST app with no problem (In fact I don't even have the app installed), but uninstalling the driver requires a clean install. That would take me days to complete.

I did find this procedure how to change to AHCI..

Click the Start Button and type cmd
Right-click the result and select Run as administrator
Type this command and press ENTER: bcdedit /set {current} safeboot minimal (ALT: bcdedit /set safeboot minimal)
Restart the computer and enter BIOS Setup
Change the SATA Operation mode to AHCI from either IDE or RAID
Save changes and exit Setup and Windows will automatically boot to Safe Mode.
Right-click the Windows Start Menu once more. Choose Command Prompt (Admin).
Type this command and press ENTER: bcdedit /deletevalue {current} safeboot (ALT: bcdedit /deletevalue safeboot)
Reboot once more and Windows will automatically start with AHCI drivers enabled.

From what I've found so far, IRST installs 12 drivers/dlls/services.. Even if I am able to change to AHCI, these would still be on my system.
I really don't like that. I had this bright idea I could boot from a Linux distro and delete those 12 files but...God knows how many registry entries there are,
and who knows what shape my system would be in if I did.

I'm going to wait and see if Soldigm support responds but I'm beginning to think I should leave well enough alone..

Scannerman · Oct 9, 2023

Changing from RAID to AHCI in the BIOS is easy. The annoying part would be reinstalling the OS, which you would definitely need to do. I'm a big fan of RAID myself despite IRST not being all that reliable in some cases. If I were in your shoes I would leave it. In fact, I'd probably set up a couple of SATA SSD RAID arrays (in RAID1) for backup purposes similar to what my wife has on her PC. Recently, one of her old drives finally failed but because it was in RAID1 I simply removed the defective drive and replaced it with a brand new identical drive. It just picked up and re-wrote the mirror all on it's own via the IRST software; so this way she always has a double copy of her archived storage. Of course, her OS is not mirrored, or in a RAID array so speed and performance are not compromised. It has run reliably this way for years.

Most complications with RAID are due to people installing the OS in the RAID array. This isn't necessary. Unless you're doing some serious number crunching, advanced video processing, or something equally demanding you already have enough speed with your NVMe and likely more speed than you're likely to use on a regular basis. I don't mean this condescendingly. I'm just offering some pragmatic advice here. Judging by the specs for your system I'd say you have plenty of mileage on that unit and you have a very smart looking setup. Future proofing isn't a factor here.

Flashorn · Oct 9, 2023

Scannerman said:
You noticed that too, huh?

Yes but, I had to wear my glasses

glasskuter said:
@Flashorn Yeah I noticed that note on the page of the software.

I think Scannerman has the right idea. For what you will get in return from a Gen 3 slot,
I think you'd be better off not messing around with the RAID array already installed.

I had the opportunity to install the RST on this notebook because of the 2 Gen 4 slots but,
decided against it. I had a bad experience once with my Scorpius and just forgot about it.
Ended up with the 520 Intel and a Seagate Momentus for storage. Glad I did.

glasskuter · Oct 9, 2023

OK here's the scoop from Solidgm support. (Excellent support by the way. A human answered directly on 3rd ring. Almost unheard of in this day and time)

Yes, if one has Intel Rapid Storage Controller, one CAN NOT use the Solidigm driver without a clean install to remove all things Intel that relates to IRST.
I brought up the fact that no reference was made to this fact anywhere in the tiny instruction manual nor anywhere on the Solidigm site. I feel this is remiss of the company since many OEMs enable IRST. This could be problematic for a newbie installing one of these drives who follows the guidance on Solidgm's site which stresses the importance of using their driver.
The only thing I found was that it does not support raid but no reference telling the user what it's necessary to do if raid is configured.

Yes, when one uses the P44 Pro, Fast Lane does not presently work even if one does use the Solidgm driver. It currently works for P41 only.

Yes, drive performance is affected when one uses any storage controller driver other than Solidgm storage controller. He was unable to give me a ballpark estimate of how much it was affected. ( One would think their research would have this information)

So there you have it straight from the horse's mouth..

Despite this, I still like my drive. I would have run into the same problem with any m.2 I bought if it had its own proprietary controller driver.
I'm leaving everything exactly as it is. Over, out, fini.

Flashorn · Oct 9, 2023

glasskuter said:
A human answered directly on 3rd ring

Yep, try that with a Gov. number!!

OK, so, the person you talked to was probably referencing the data for a Gen 4 slot because, that's what the drive is intended for.
You OTH, are using it in a Gen 3 slot which uses a different bandwidth. The Gen 3 tops out at about 3400 to 3500 as opposed to
a Gen 4's 7000 read speed. So, using their driver would not affect the ability of the drive's read speed in the slot it is used at the
moment. You are getting the max read for a Gen 3 slot. I think you should be very satisfied with these results considering the
circumstances.
You did not mention whether you or the person you talked to have mentioned this fact. Am I wrong?

SIW2 · Oct 9, 2023

You are getting the max read for a Gen 3 slot.

How do you know ? There might be some improvement possible with the driver though it also might be affected by that particular motherboard/bios.

The same nvme on different motherboards will not show exactly the same crystaldiskmark score.

Another question is whether any minor difference on test software will make any practical difference irl.

Flashorn · Oct 9, 2023

SIW2 said:
How do you know ?

She already posted the Crystal bench for it.

SIW2 · Oct 9, 2023

yes that is what I looked at. The top row is not the only thing. The bottom two rows. I don't know if the driver would effect much improvement there. It might.

glasskuter · Oct 9, 2023

Flashorn said:
You did not mention whether you or the person you talked to have mentioned this fact. Am I wrong?

No, you're not wrong and I am very happy with the drive.. I didn't mention to him I had gen 3. I knew I was already getting close to the max speeds I could expect from my older board. I wanted to take advantage of the drive's caching ability but once I found out the P44 Pro can't use Fast Lane it became moot for me anyway. (He did say they are working on making it possible though)

My questions to him were more general regarding the toolkit and driver as they pertain to everyone. It doesn't matter whether one has a gen3 or gen4 board. The raid controller thing will come into play with anyone who uses IRST or AMD raid controller, whether they use a raid setup or not. Solidigm's website and documentation should clearly address this possibility. Those of us with any experience at all know whether our UEFI bios is set to raid or not. The majority of users out there don't. I blame a lot of this on the OEMs who enable raid by default. It's standard procedure for Dell to do it. I don't know about the others.

Flashorn · Oct 9, 2023

SIW2 said:
yes that is what I looked at.

I just fired up my GT73 with a Gen 3 and 970 evo 1TB and Crystal benched it 2 minutes ago. Remember this drive has been in use
for about 4 years now. It is almost empty as having a new notebook everything was transferred to the new one. I have roughly
5000 hrs on that drive. The write speeds squashes this drive. Maybe give us some insight on how she could make it faster and maybe
more stable.

Flashorn · Oct 9, 2023

glasskuter said:
Solidigm's website and documentation should clearly address this possibility

I'm betting that they will after your talk.
Could there be a way to simply disable the RAID array and use the drive's driver?

SIW2 · Oct 9, 2023

I already said it is possible the solidigm driver might improve the result on the bottom two rows. Dont know till you try.

I have seen crystaldiskmark scores as high as 72 in the 4kb q1t1 row in screenshots posted elsewhere.

Never know if you dont try.

Scannerman · Oct 9, 2023

glasskuter said:
OK here's the scoop from Solidgm support. (Excellent support by the way. A human answered directly on 3rd ring. Almost unheard of in this day and time)

Yes, if one has Intel Rapid Storage Controller, one CAN NOT use the Solidigm driver without a clean install to remove all things Intel that relates to IRST.
I brought up the fact that no reference was made to this fact anywhere in the tiny instruction manual nor anywhere on the Solidigm site. I feel this is remiss of the company since many OEMs enable IRST. This could be problematic for a newbie installing one of these drives who follows the guidance on Solidgm's site which stresses the importance of using their driver.
The only thing I found was that it does not support raid but no reference telling the user what it's necessary to do if raid is configured.

Yes, when one uses the P44 Pro, Fast Lane does not presently work even if one does use the Solidgm driver. It currently works for P41 only.

Yes, drive performance is affected when one uses any storage controller driver other than Solidgm storage controller. He was unable to give me a ballpark estimate of how much it was affected. ( One would think their research would have this information)

So there you have it straight from the horse's mouth..

Despite this, I still like my drive. I would have run into the same problem with any m.2 I bought if it had its own proprietary controller driver.
I'm leaving everything exactly as it is. Over, out, fini.

Speaking of the "human condition", any X-tra tweaking on your superb Gen 3 platform to your new NVMe would be so negligible that it would hardly be worth the effort. You would have to run a stop watch on it to be cognitive of your millisecond advantage. Best case scenario: You save yourself a couple of minutes making huge transfers of mega TB of data. Just setting it up (in the event that you are successful) would likely cost you more time than you'd save in this venture to shave milliseconds off your speeds. You made the right choice.

I've been raiding drives for decades now and I'm no stranger to NVMe either. Many people don't understand that they can run non-raided drives on a PC where the BIOS has been configured for RAID. For example, you can run your OS on a drive that has not been configured for RAID while your storage is in RAID1. In my case, my Windows 11 is not in a RAID array but outside of this I'm running 5 different kinds of RAID on the same PC without issue. (I do not advise this for the novice.) My point is that my OS is not running on a RAID array.

When Intel went EOL on Optane they flipped their headache over to Solidigm and methinks they're preparing to do something very similar with IRST (as they have also gone EOL with NUC) as well. It's looking as though Intel wants people to stop using IRST. Frankly, the domestic end user market with Intel is starting to look pretty grim. What with Spectre/Meltdown barely under control and the requirement for drastic changes in architecture on the table, the whole USB4 fiasco, and Gen5 PCIe on the horizon, Intel has their hands full. For me it is no great wonder why they're farming out so much of their work load to Solidigm. As for me and my archaic PCIe Gen3 work station, I'll be using IRST until it crashes and burns. I have the software to retrieve the data should this be the case. I suspect I'll be good for another ten years.

Again, I think you made the right choice and CONGRATULATIONS!

Maverik · Oct 9, 2023

Scannerman said:
Speaking of the "human condition", any X-tra tweaking on your superb Gen 3 platform to your new NVMe would be so negligible that it would hardly be worth the effort. You would have to run a stop watch on it to be cognitive of your millisecond advantage. Best case scenario: You save yourself a couple of minutes making huge transfers of mega TB of data. Just setting it up (in the event that you are successful) would likely cost you more time than you'd save in this venture to shave milliseconds off your speeds. You made the right choice.

I've been raiding drives for decades now and I'm no stranger to NVMe either. Many people don't understand that they can run non-raided drives on a PC where the BIOS has been configured for RAID. For example, you can run your OS on a drive that has not been configured for RAID while your storage is in RAID1. In my case, my Windows 11 is not in a RAID array but outside of this I'm running 5 different kinds of RAID on the same PC without issue. (I do not advise this for the novice.) My point is that my OS is not running on a RAID array.

When Intel went EOL on Optane they flipped their headache over to Solidigm and methinks they're preparing to do something very similar with IRST (as they have also gone EOL with NUC) as well. It's looking as though Intel wants people to stop using IRST. Frankly, the domestic end user market with Intel is starting to look pretty grim. What with Spectre/Meltdown barely under control and the requirement for drastic changes in architecture on the table, the whole USB4 fiasco, and Gen5 PCIe on the horizon, Intel has their hands full. For me it is no great wonder why they're farming out so much of their work load to Solidigm. As for me and my archaic PCIe Gen3 work station, I'll be using IRST until it crashes and burns. I have the software to retrieve the data should this be the case. I suspect I'll be good for another ten years.

Again, I think you made the right choice and CONGRATULATIONS!

After flash reading the thread, the last statement that stands out is:
"Speaking of the "human condition", any X-tra tweaking on your superb Gen 3 platform to your new NVMe would be so negligible that it would hardly be worth the effort."

Once the measurement of the the hard drive speed is close to the spec on the box, a lot of extra tweaking doesn't help much.
PCIe Gen3 should be near 3500 Mb/sec
PCIe Gen4 should be near 7000 Mb/sec
Both have four lanes so is just depends on whether it is Gen3 or Gen4.

All sectors on the drive are accessed at the same speed of light (limited by the Gen). So you don't need to defrag an SSD or NVME.
You can turn off the Sysmain service.
Turn off prefetch in the registry.
\HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session Manager\Memory Management\PrefetchParameters
(Modify from 3 to 0).
You don't even need to run the cache software from the drive manufacturer.

It's all good!

hdmi · Oct 10, 2023

My 2TB Samsung 980 PRO, running at PCIe 3.0 speed in my current laptop:

Here is a 512GB Phison PCIe 3.0 NVMe SSD (model E12-512G-PHISON-SSD-B27-BB1), the sustained sequential write speed of which is 1000MB/s slower than the above result:

e12-512g-phison-ssd-b27-bb1-pcie-3-0-x4-png.51938

That being said, I am sure that the 1TB version of this 512GB Phison SSD would have better write speeds than it. But I am also sure that they both still lag noticeably behind my Samsung 980 PRO especially in this regard... in spite of my laptop limiting it to only PCIe 3.0 speed. And it doesn't need/use a proprietary driver from Samsung like I earlier said (twice) so, it also doesn't matter if the Intel RST driver has been installed. Better yet, Medion didn't install the RST, and neither did I... the story had already ended even before it could start... which was a very long time ago... just how I like it. lol

pparks1 · Oct 10, 2023

hdmi said:
My 2TB Samsung 980 PRO, running at PCIe 3.0 speed in my current laptop:

Here is a 512GB Phison PCIe 3.0 NVMe SSD (model E12-512G-PHISON-SSD-B27-BB1), the sustained sequential write speed of which is 1000MB/s slower than the above result:

That being said, I am sure that the 1TB version of this 512GB Phison SSD would have better write speeds than it. But I am also sure that they both still lag noticeably behind my Samsung 980 PRO especially in this regard... in spite of my laptop limiting it to only PCIe 3.0 speed. And it doesn't need/use a proprietary driver from Samsung like I earlier said (twice) so, it also doesn't matter if the Intel RST driver has been installed. Better yet, Medion didn't install the RST, and neither did I... the story had already ended even before it could start... which was a very long time ago... just how I like it. lol

While that second drive does indeed have slower sequential write speeds, unless you are regularly writing GB's and GB's of files, you probably aren't even going to notice the difference between those two drives during normal day to day, real world tasks.

Ghot · Oct 10, 2023

Maverik said:
It's all good!

I feel the need... the need for speed.

Scannerman · Oct 10, 2023

hdmi said:
My 2TB Samsung 980 PRO, running at PCIe 3.0 speed in my current laptop:

Here is a 512GB Phison PCIe 3.0 NVMe SSD (model E12-512G-PHISON-SSD-B27-BB1), the sustained sequential write speed of which is 1000MB/s slower than the above result:

That being said, I am sure that the 1TB version of this 512GB Phison SSD would have better write speeds than it. But I am also sure that they both still lag noticeably behind my Samsung 980 PRO especially in this regard... in spite of my laptop limiting it to only PCIe 3.0 speed. And it doesn't need/use a proprietary driver from Samsung like I earlier said (twice) so, it also doesn't matter if the Intel RST driver has been installed. Better yet, Medion didn't install the RST, and neither did I... the story had already ended even before it could start... which was a very long time ago... just how I like it. lol

My curiosity was killing me so I ordered one.

Solved Hey hardware guys. Need advice on m.2 drive

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