Macrium Reflect moving to lease model.

cereberus · Jul 9, 2023

glasskuter said:
@Josey Wales Yes this topic is about Macrium going to lease, but it all ties together with the ramifications of the May update (also second phase July update). Folks need to be informed so they can either decide to lease Macrium or stay with the version they already have.

As it stands today, there are more questions than answers about whether Macrium will offer a means for older versions of Macrium to create new workable boot media using the new WinPE (that MS hasn't even released yet) that will include the May and July updates. Many people using secure boot have already manually applied the revocations referred to in the May update and after the first of the year(or sooner) MS will automatically apply those revocations to ALL secure boot systems.

At this point, because of so many unaswered questions, some here believe all one needs to do to boot from their current Macrium recovery media is to turn secure boot off. Some of us, however, read the gobbly gook we've been given so far to say that once the revocations have been applied to a secure boot system, recovery media we now have will not work...period.

People are failing to realise the secure boot issue also affects other imaging tools. So no, this topic is derailing this thread. A new thread should be started.

jimbo45 · Jul 9, 2023

SIW2 said:
Cobblers.

The right of distribution pases to the buyer. That does not happen if an item is rented.

That's also not true for "non rented" software -- at least in most jurisdictions. If I purchase a Windows license - that doesn't grant me the right to distribute that copy of Windows to all and sundry. Most products will have a "Non transferable" clause associated with them. I can of course give a computer with an installed version of Windows to someone else but that's because the software is licensed to be used on that particular device rather than on the person using it. The EULA is pretty clear (for a legal document !!).

Copyright, patent and other intellectual rights issues are a complex (and a really complex) area of legislation -- I think it's better if those things were discussed on legal or consumer orientated forums as many not in "the know" can be fed a huge dollop of mis-information (not done deliberately in most cases btw -- it's just that most law is complex and often not logical).

I think the only exception where laws are simple is in Russia -- works as follows and in this order : 1) the verdict -- always guilty. 2) now decide what the charge is. Then 3) who the defendants are. Works 100% every time !!!!.

Cheers
jimbo

Josey Wales · Jul 9, 2023

Stigg said:
The notion that you actually own software is a misnomer and an outdated way of thinking.

As far as Windows Goes you are correct. But Macrium Reflect Home is Owned by the user .

SIW2 · Jul 9, 2023

jimbo45 said:
That's also not true for "non rented" software -- at least in most jurisdictions.
jimbo

Yes it is. I cant speak for every jurisdiction in the world, but it is the case in civilized places.

For example, according to the ECJ:

Where the copyright holder makes available to his customer a copy – tangible or intangible – and at the same time concludes, in return for payment of a fee, a licence agreement granting the customer the right to use that copy for an unlimited period, that rightholder sells the copy to the customer and thus exhausts his exclusive distribution right. Such a transaction involves a transfer of the right of ownership of the copy. Therefore, even if the licence agreement prohibits a further transfer, the rightholder can no longer oppose the resale of that copy.

You can only sell or transfer the copy or copies you bought. You cant sell or transfer more copies than you bought. That is the diffence between the right of distribution and the right of reproduction.

If you bought a movie on dvd, you can sell or give away that copy. But can't sell multiple copies of it because you only bought one.

Software is the same.

It is obvious.

Josey Wales · Jul 9, 2023

glasskuter said:
You answered my statement with:

Payment methods had nothing to do with the purpose of my post. Neither did the screenshot . My remarks centered around the UEFI revocations and their affect on viable Macrium recovery media for secure boot systems, especially recovery media created in Macrium Free which is no longer supported. As of today 8.1 media is also affected if the revocations have been manually applied.

Anything that can affect a user being able to use his recovery media after the revocations are applied needs to be taken into consideration and fully understood before when one makes his choices going forward. Right now,I can see my remarks and concerns are being totally misunderstood by those reading this so I'll leave it be going forward. It's all conjecture at this point anyway as Marium had not addressed how this issue will be handled in their existing products. Confusion surrounds the UEFI revocations and confusion surrounds Macrium's future.

Whether all you folks out there using backup solutions other than Macrium know it or not, this same issue will affect you as well.

I answered it the way I did because I tried to make a new post but for some reason, I could not do it. So I just picked yours at random. You content is extremely important but should be in it's own Thread as it affects just about everything.

johnlgalt · Jul 10, 2023

Kinda have to agree with this. The whole concept of revisions being made to Windows 11 + Secure Boot deserves its own thread, independently of this thread about macrium, even if related - I mean, it's easy enough to link to other threads..

pparks1 · Jul 10, 2023

jimbo45 said:
Also if these cheap copies of Office2021 still work for a couple of years then why on earth go subscription.

For me? Because the cheap license vendors don't also include 6TB of OneDrive space for the measly $99 a year. That alone for me makes Office 365 a no-brainer. In addition to that, I also get unlimited Office Professional installs on any device I have. And I have both PC and Mac versions. And I always have the latest versions. And I never have to wonder if my cheap key is going to suddenly quit working. And at $99 a year for 6 accounts means you and a few friends could share the cost, thus $99/6 or $16.50 per person per year. I spend that much on lunch any day I'm in the office. And I also get a discount from my employer, so I get Office 365 for $69.99 a year for my 6 users.

TraderGary · Jul 10, 2023

For me too! My Microsoft 365 subscription is also an absolute no-brainer for my Terabyte of OneDrive Cloud and my Microsoft Office always up to date.

johnlgalt · Jul 11, 2023

pparks1 said:
For me? Because the cheap license vendors don't also include 6TB of OneDrive space for the measly $99 a year. That alone for me makes Office 365 a no-brainer. In addition to that, I also get unlimited Office Professional installs on any device I have. And I have both PC and Mac versions. And I always have the latest versions. And I never have to wonder if my cheap key is going to suddenly quit working. And at $99 a year for 6 accounts means you and a few friends could share the cost, thus $99/6 or $16.50 per person per year. I spend that much on lunch any day I'm in the office. And I also get a discount from my employer, so I get Office 365 for $69.99 a year for my 6 users.

TraderGary said:
For me too! My Microsoft 365 subscription is also an absolute no-brainer for my Terabyte of OneDrive Cloud and my Microsoft Office always up to date.

@jimbo45 In addition to all of the above, you have direct availability for office online use with all of that 1 TB of storage, as well as additional services (like unified management of security through the Microsoft Defender for Office), family plan management, including but not limited to storage management, easier integration with Windows folder backups (Unless something has changed, OneDrive with Win 11 can automatically back up Desktop, Pictures, and Documents, where OneDrive with Office also allows for Videos and Music), and more.

If each person bought a retail copy of Office, even at dirt cheap prices, and only had the 5 or 15 GB of online storage, whatever that may be, to get it even close to 1 TB per person ends up costing more than just buying the subscription from Microsoft - and you can pay monthly, or yearly, meaning you don't have to drop a ton of money at one time.

Make no mistake, subscriptions are geared in favor of the software developers for the most part - but being able to perpetually pay $10 / month versus having to dish out $400 at one time is pretty enticing for a lot of people, and it becomes more accessible along with more affordable in both the short run and the long run.

If it was a bad business model, then leasing condos, renting apartments, and leasing vehicles would all be failing miserably as well.

As for software ownership - it's nothing new that devs have been moving to a licensing model whereby the end user is allowed the right to install and use, but the license terms do not convey true ownership of the software. This is something that has been happening for 20+ years now, it's not like it just started any time recently. EULAs have been there for a long time, and the wording whereby a user was 'granted the limited license to install and use' any software package has been inherent in said EULAs for the majority of larger software packages for at least that long, most of them for much longer.

If you don't want to pay, it's certainly your right. There are plenty of other methods to get most of the same things accomplished. I'd warrant that perhaps less than 1% of all activities humans do on computers cannot be accomplished in a variety of ways, through different OSs and software packages, without paying a dime. Technically. Because Internet access still costs - and even if you try to argue that NetZero offers 10 hours a month of free dial-up, I;ll argue back that you're still paying for a telephone line to use it.

f14tomcat · Jul 11, 2023

Well, I've completed all the PT updates and I tested the boot of my MR thumb drive with Secure Boot on. All is fine. Media was made as of last MR update a while back. FWIW, I use the WinPE to create my media.

jimbo45 · Jul 12, 2023

johnlgalt said:
@jimbo45 In addition to all of the above, you have direct availability for office online use with all of that 1 TB of storage, as well as additional services (like unified management of security through the Microsoft Defender for Office), family plan management, including but not limited to storage management, easier integration with Windows folder backups (Unless something has changed, OneDrive with Win 11 can automatically back up Desktop, Pictures, and Documents, where OneDrive with Office also allows for Videos and Music), and more.

If each person bought a retail copy of Office, even at dirt cheap prices, and only had the 5 or 15 GB of online storage, whatever that may be, to get it even close to 1 TB per person ends up costing more than just buying the subscription from Microsoft - and you can pay monthly, or yearly, meaning you don't have to drop a ton of money at one time.

Make no mistake, subscriptions are geared in favor of the software developers for the most part - but being able to perpetually pay $10 / month versus having to dish out $400 at one time is pretty enticing for a lot of people, and it becomes more accessible along with more affordable in both the short run and the long run.

If it was a bad business model, then leasing condos, renting apartments, and leasing vehicles would all be failing miserably as well.

As for software ownership - it's nothing new that devs have been moving to a licensing model whereby the end user is allowed the right to install and use, but the license terms do not convey true ownership of the software. This is something that has been happening for 20+ years now, it's not like it just started any time recently. EULAs have been there for a long time, and the wording whereby a user was 'granted the limited license to install and use' any software package has been inherent in said EULAs for the majority of larger software packages for at least that long, most of them for much longer.

If you don't want to pay, it's certainly your right. There are plenty of other methods to get most of the same things accomplished. I'd warrant that perhaps less than 1% of all activities humans do on computers cannot be accomplished in a variety of ways, through different OSs and software packages, without paying a dime. Technically. Because Internet access still costs - and even if you try to argue that NetZero offers 10 hours a month of free dial-up, I;ll argue back that you're still paying for a telephone line to use it.

Hi there
I didn't say paying for software was no good -- it's just the manner of paying and the cost.

In general it's always cheaper to pay a one time fee rather than pay up "ad infinitum". If you can say get a cheap credit card interest on the 400 USD then IMO it makes better sense to spend that as you'll be in profit after around 36 months compared with the monthly subscriptions, plus you've still got the 400 USD to do something else with - perhaps invest and make more money.

As for mortgages -- again the bigger deposit you can put down the cheaper the thing is in the long run -- mortgages in fact aren't designed to run for ever -- these are intended to help buyers get their real estate when they can't pay the whole wack up front - it's not an indefinite lease model. As for cars - it makes sense if you only want a car for specific periods -- sometimes I have gone over a year without needing a car.

It's all down to economics -- but for example compare the interest you pay say on a 6% 250,000 USD mortgage over 25 years compared to 6% on 150,000 over 12 years. Compound interest is horrible over lengthy terms !!!!.

In the above cases :

and for the second case

Nearly 3/4ths of a Million dollars difference just in interest payments -- So please all of you buying or thinking of buying real estate or any other expensive items do check the very real effect of compound interest -- even at relatively low rates of interest it can mount up HORRIBLY very quickly.

For condo's etc I would never get involved in those sorts of things having to pay in perpetuity stuff over which I have no control. While in the case of utilities I'm almost 100% independent of the grid : Wind turbine and geothermal pump for electricity -- Solar is not very practical in Iceland !!!!-- only Water and sewage which is a minimal cost - hardly noticeable here.

cheers
jimbo

johnlgalt · Jul 12, 2023

jimbo45 said:
In general it's always cheaper to pay a one time fee rather than pay up "ad infinitum". If you can say get a cheap credit card interest on the 400 USD then IMO it makes better sense to spend that as you'll be in profit after around 36 months compared with the monthly subscriptions, plus you've still got the 400 USD to do something else with - perhaps invest and make more money.

But you don't pay once. When you need to upgrade, you pay again. With most software subs, it's perpetual payment with perpetual upgrades.

jimbo45 said:
As for mortgages -- again the bigger deposit you can put down the cheaper the thing is in the long run -- mortgages in fact aren't designed to run for ever -- these are intended to help buyers get their real estate when they can't pay the whole wack up front - it's not an indefinite lease model. As for cars - it makes sense if you only want a car for specific periods -- sometimes I have gone over a year without needing a car.

Sorry, but I did not say or write the word mortgage anywhere in my previous reply. For a very specific reason - it is not perpetual as you noted. You can search the page and verify.

Porthos · Jul 12, 2023

johnlgalt said:
But you don't pay once. When you need to upgrade, you pay again.

Exactly, When I went from 7 to 8 I paid. When 9 comes out I will pay again.
Version 8 was released - on 17th May 2021 so when version 9 is released it will be over 2 yrs on that version.

Releases

2023-01-30 Macrium Reflect 8.1 released
2021-05-17 Macrium Reflect 8.0 released Pay
2020-10-14 Macrium Reflect 7.3 released
2017-09-29 Macrium Reflect 7.2 released
2017-09-28 Macrium Reflect 7.1 released
2017-02-27 Macrium Reflect 7.0 released Pay
2015-02-16 Macrium Reflect 6.0 released Pay
2011-06-01 Macrium Reflect 5.0 released Pay

Macrium is pleased to offer three stages of product support.

Stage 1: Current Support begins from the release date and lasts until the next full product version is released. For example, Reflect 8 to Reflect 9. The entirety of our customer support services are available during this stage.
Stage 2: Extended Support begins when the Current Support stage ends and lasts for a specific duration. Typically, this is one full year. During this stage, customer support services are limited.
Stage 3: Self-Service Support remains available indefinitely after the Extended Support stage ends. This includes the Knowledge Base, technical documentation, version-specific forum, and other resources to help customers resolve common issues for themselves.

jimbo45 · Jul 13, 2023

johnlgalt said:
But you don't pay once. When you need to upgrade, you pay again. With most software subs, it's perpetual payment with perpetual upgrades.

Sorry, but I did not say or write the word mortgage anywhere in my previous reply. For a very specific reason - it is not perpetual as you noted. You can search the page and verify.

Must have misread - however people often incorrectly include things like Mortgages when quoting examples of monthly recurring payments -- even though these are NOT subscriptions !!!!!

Anyway this thread must have run its course by now - if people are OK with subs OK go for it. I instinctively dislike them and don't upgrade software at the first opportunity --if at all .

My Ms Office 2010 installs still work perfectly - even after 15 or so years from the initial release (I think Office 2010 actually appeared in 2008), -- (Windows insider builds are an exception -- all that costs is time !!). There's not much in Office 2021 that can't be done in Office 2010 if you ignore some of the working in teams bits out. In any case Ms teams itself can be installed as a stand alone product -- actually works (IMO) a lot better than Zoom.

Cheers
jimbo

johnlgalt · Jul 13, 2023

I don't normally make mistakes like that.

One of my degrees is Mathematics, after all

pparks1 · Aug 1, 2023

I see on the Macrium site, they are offering a 50% discount on the 4 computers on the annual plan. So that puts this at $99.98 a year for 4 computers.

So, the 1 copy license is $49 for the annual plan, and $79 for the purchase once plan.

For the 4 computer pack, it's as follows

cereberus · Aug 1, 2023

pparks1 said:
I see on the Macrium site, they are offering a 50% discount on the 4 computers on the annual plan. So that puts this at $99.98 a year for 4 computers.

So, the 1 copy license is $49 for the annual plan, and $79 for the purchase once plan.
View attachment 66422

For the 4 computer pack, it's as follows

View attachment 66424

That is a huge increase for 4 permanent licences (roughly double).

jimbo45 · Aug 1, 2023

pparks1 said:
I see on the Macrium site, they are offering a 50% discount on the 4 computers on the annual plan. So that puts this at $99.98 a year for 4 computers.

So, the 1 copy license is $49 for the annual plan, and $79 for the purchase once plan.
View attachment 66422

For the 4 computer pack, it's as follows

View attachment 66424

Sorry folks but after years of using and happy with Macrium I've given up on it.

The only time I've had a problem with it was that after the latest Canary build of W11 pro update Macrium V8 Free thought I was running on a server and errored out when trying to start it.

I KNOW it's not windows defect since I reverted to previous build via the standard process and 100% OK working. Works also on DEV and BETA latest releases but a backup system that becomes unreliable -- Time to go folks.

I know here a load don't want or even care about Linux - but if you just boot the stand alone version of Gparted -- it can backup / copy partitions with almost the identical GUI as loads of Windows partition managers -- with No ads and doesn't even care about the various file systems.

I love the convenience and ease of Macrium Free -- but sorry folks --my time is up with that type of software when with a slight learning curve there's other open source stuff that does the job just as well.

For people who need more basic stuff than disk imaging / cloning e.g incremental type backups or for enterprise type of backups then using the paid version is OK -- but just for a backup of the basic OS -- ?? apart from the fact that this should be built in to the OS anyway --'Nuf said.

(For data backups / archives - any Linux distro running rsync with a crontab is about 7 million times better -- and even those who hate command lines can install the basic front end GUI rsync -- but again maybe discussion for another thread).

Cheers
jimbo

pparks1 · Aug 1, 2023

jimbo45 said:
I love the convenience and ease of Macrium Free -- but sorry folks --my time is up with that type of software when with a slight learning curve there's other open source stuff that does the job just as well.

That's the beauty of having a choice. While I can backup a partition or a disk with gparted, there are features of Macrium that make it more functional for a lot of us. Things like being able to do an incremental of differential backup. Being able to mount an image file as a drive letter and pull back specific files and folders. With the paid for versions of macrium you can backup files and folders specifically. Ability to encrypt and password protect your backups, etc.

The real kicker is that the free version is going away, and only the person using the software can determine if they are willing to pay the price for the non-free versions.

While I did buy a 4 pack of the 8.x product, I'm unsure if I will be inclined to pay for the sub for future versions and not sure that i'm willing to pay upwards of $60 per license for the perpetual license release.

Years ago, when all my files were local to my computer, my email was on my computer, my pictures were on my computer, my bookmarks were on my computer, my game saves were on my computer...having a backup was something I never wanted to be without. with so much of my stuff in the cloud or saved on my local file server, images and such of my desktop just aren't nearly as important to me as they once were. And not to mention, I can install Windows in just a few minutes, and with high speed internet and cumulative updates I can be up and patched really fast.

jimbo45 · Aug 2, 2023

pparks1 said:
That's the beauty of having a choice. While I can backup a partition or a disk with gparted, there are features of Macrium that make it more functional for a lot of us. Things like being able to do an incremental of differential backup. Being able to mount an image file as a drive letter and pull back specific files and folders. With the paid for versions of macrium you can backup files and folders specifically. Ability to encrypt and password protect your backups, etc.

The real kicker is that the free version is going away, and only the person using the software can determine if they are willing to pay the price for the non-free versions.

While I did buy a 4 pack of the 8.x product, I'm unsure if I will be inclined to pay for the sub for future versions and not sure that i'm willing to pay upwards of $60 per license for the perpetual license release.

Years ago, when all my files were local to my computer, my email was on my computer, my pictures were on my computer, my bookmarks were on my computer, my game saves were on my computer...having a backup was something I never wanted to be without. with so much of my stuff in the cloud or saved on my local file server, images and such of my desktop just aren't nearly as important to me as they once were. And not to mention, I can install Windows in just a few minutes, and with high speed internet and cumulative updates I can be up and patched really fast.

Agree mostly - but file servers with data on them need to be backed up too - I just rsync every so often changed files to an external drive. For really important data I just send those to the cloud. These days with fast fibre Internet, and 5G both cloud security and connection reliabilty is fine if you use trusted providers. I have a load of music files too on a NAS file server but since those are mainly old ripped CD's they don't change so I only needed to back those up once.

I just think Macrium is going about this at the wrong time -- especially now as people all over the world are cutting back on expenditure and they are IMO charging domestic users too much if they stick to the proposed pricing model.

I'm not sure a domestic user who just every so often only has used the free version and then for only backing up the OS will go for the paid versions when with a bit of googling and experimentation they could save some serious money. 60 USD will probably translate to € 65 + say 20% VAT so you're looking at around € 70 in EU/EEA and probably even worse in the UK at around £70.

If they are concentrating more on enterprise users then they should make their product more "Linux friendly" with regard to data backups since many companies use Linux servers even if they run Windows Virtual desktop infrastructure desktops on them for client laptops.

If it had some type of really improved grsync GUI for data from any OS and did it efficiently I'm sure they'd get many more sales of their product. However who knows how the marketing departments of some of these companies work.

Finally it seems crazy that on the Canary latest W11 build which I was running as a VM Macrium free V8 refused to work or re-install insisting my OS was a Windows Server edition !!!! while an old old (yes mean the double old) copy of Norton Ghost actually worked !!!

I finally found what seemed to be causing the problem. I wanted to get the best possible Disk performance from the VM so I converted the Virtual disks from the standard "Virtual AHCI SATA" type of controller to Virtio SCSI controller with writeback cache enabled (using KVM/QEMU as the virtualisation platform). Macrium seemed to think this type of controller was only a server. !!!!The performance was quite a bit better too. I avoided using LVM on the Host for all sorts of reasons == found using XFS perfectly OK.

Cheers
jimbo

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