Solved Switch to Linux

spapakons · Sep 26, 2024

If Linux is as good as Windows (you wish), and free, how do you explain its tiny user base? Every single computer user is blind or stupid? Not, this is because Linux sucks as a desktop OS and most of us would rather pay for a Windows license that install this free sh!t. Even better, we don't have to pay since Windows is pre installed on new computers and we can use our old Windows 7/8 key to activate Windows 10/11 on our old ones, well until some months ago.

pparks1 · Sep 26, 2024

spapakons said:
No such luck, I had to use the dreadful Terminal.

Well, Linux isn't for you. Nothing wrong with that, right tool for the right job. The terminal is so much more powerful than a GUI can be, but yeah it requires you to type in some stuff, cut and paste and read some blog posts and such. So if you are like me and love being at the Terminal, the terminal is no big issue. I always hit the terminal to do things like a "sudo yum update", even if there was a gui available, I most likely wouldn't use it, I'd be at the terminal. Heck out of the thousands of Linux boxes I have setup, run or otherwise managed/administered, more than 99.8% of them do not even have a GUI installed.

spapakons said:
Every other software I wanted to install that wasn't in the repository required specific Terminal commands to add its repository and install it. Not really convenient.

But look at windows, for everything that is not included with windows, you have to go to the web, search for what you want, find the downloader, download the file, double click to install the file and either use the software's updater feature or check back on a regular basis to get the latest updates for it.

Let's say I was using a RedHat Linux distro such as Rocky Linux 9 and I wanted to install Zabbix (Zabbix is an open-source monitoring tool that can help developers keep an eye on various components of their infrastructure.) Here are the steps to install it.

open terminal (okay, I've already lost you...but bear with me)

sudo rpm -Uvh https://repo.zabbix.com/zabbix/6.4/rhel/9/x86_64/zabbix-release-6.4-2.el9.noarch.rpm (install the zabbix repo onto your system)

sudo dnf install zabbix-server-mysql zabbix-web-mysql zabbix-nginx-conf zabbix-sql-scripts zabbix-selinux-policy zabbix-agent (installs the server, the agents and the front-end and in 1 command you can just cut and paste)

And now, since the repo is on your box whenever you run the update command again (dnf update -y) it not only updates your OS and everything it came with, but it also grabs all the updates to other packages based on the repos on your box. So, your zabbix would also be updated as well.

Seems pretty convenient to me. Loads a bunch of packages, in 1 command and now you can easily keep everything updated on your box.

pparks1 · Sep 26, 2024

spapakons said:
If Linux is as good as Windows (you wish), and free, how do you explain its tiny user base? Every single computer user is blind or stupid? Not, this is because Linux sucks as a desktop OS and most of us would rather pay for a Windows license that install this free sh!t. Even better, we don't have to pay since Windows is pre installed on new computers and we can use our old Windows 7/8 key to activate Windows 10/11 on our old ones, well until some months ago.

Linux isn't the cat's pajamas on the desktop. I've mentioned that many, many times. It's beauty is in the server room. Not a tiny user base there. It's the majority.

neves · Sep 26, 2024

pparks1 said:
As having owned a Macbook Pro (2013) and an Apple Mac Mini (M1-2020), i can say that generally speaking they do "just work". On my 2013 MacBook, I never once had to format and reinstall the OS from scratch. I simply upgraded from version, to version, to version, to version and honestly it did just work. Eventually the newer OS's weren't supported, but you get my drift. Tools like TimeMachine are just built in, and make it drop dead simple to get back to a previous point in time, regardless if you are on the same mac or a different one.

And back in the day, Windows did have a lot of egg on their face from allowing everybody to run as an admin and viruses and malware were certainly a considerable problem. Fortunately, the vast majority of those problems have been rectified and the problems are certainly less and less these days.

I'm well aware of Apple's golden prison like ecosystem (hardware and software wise - they do allow you to communicate with the outside world - hopefully praising their products :). But my point was not about that. More like... some Windows users are highly condescending, hateful even to the extent of cyber-bullying while dabbling with Linux content/users - adopting a virtual embodiment of schoolyard bullying - where they gather in groups - just to harass and throw dirt on a smaller group displaying different hobbies/beliefs. It's not just a matter of disagreements - which can be done respectfully, but mindless hate (even blunts insults) - lacking any constructive notions or at least friendly banter. Hate is the only thing that fuels their interest.

But then... if same people cross the Apple borders - they get to see the clearest reflection of their past behavior - in a group who shares the exact same sentiment of hate for their own particular interest/hobby.

pparks1 · Sep 26, 2024

^ Yeah that's when I stop talking to people. I dabble and play with all the systems. I see the pros and cons of both. Bullying people is dumb.

i love all the hate against Apple though. I think they get hated on the most. The strongest haters are usually the ones who have never used one of their products. I'm not a fanboy, but there are some things that I really do like, and others that I don't care of at all.

spapakons · Sep 26, 2024

Apple employs planned obsolesce to make everyone replace their Macs with new models every few years. Intel based Macs could at least be formatted and install Windows or Linux if you cannot upgrade to the newer Mac OS, so they get a little longer life. Apple Silicon Macs cannot run Windows or Linux. Yes, I know there is a Linux project for M1 and M2 but this is still in alpha stage and the current Macs will probably be obsolete and replaced before it gets stable. Also I know you can install Parallels and run Windows there, but it is more like running Windows in a virtual machine, you don't have the same performance you would get if Windows would run natively there. So eventually after 3-4 Mac OS versions (that is 5 years max), your VERY expensive Mac (over 3 times the price of a PC with the SAME performance) cannot be upgraded anymore and you are stuck with an obsolete Mac OS version that virtually no application can be upgraded. Of course Apple makes sure you cannot find older versions of the same applications in Apple Store, so unless you had a specific application in your Apple ID, there is virtually no way to download and install it in your old Mac. Hence you are forced to replace your Mac. Microsoft might have given FAKE system requirements for Windows 11, but they never forced us to replace our PC. We still have the Windows 10 option plus that we can force Windows 11 on unsupported PCs by bypassing compatibility check with methods "leaked" from Microsoft themselves (coincidence? I don't think so). Even using an older version of Windows such as Windows 7, you still find many current applications to work with, unlike Mac OS. Back to Linux, if you have a rather old version the repositories no longer work and it is very difficult to find applications outside the repositories. Upgrading to a newer version is not straightforward, you may have to do sequential upgrades to reach a current version with high risk to something going wrong and render the system unbootable. Essentially your only option is to format your drive and do a clean installation of the new version with all the consequences of installing Linux from scratch.

pparks1 · Sep 27, 2024

spapakons said:
. So eventually after 3-4 Mac OS versions (that is 5 years max), your VERY expensive Mac (over 3 times the price of a PC with the SAME performance) cannot be upgraded anymore and you are stuck with an obsolete Mac OS version that virtually no application can be upgraded.

LOL, Okay. My 2013 MacBook Pro came with Mavericks, went to Yosemite, El Capitan, Sierra, High Sierra, Mojave, Catalina and Big Sur. So, that's 8 releases, and Monterey didn't come out until end of 2021...so that's about 8 years of supported OS's.

3x the price, not really. My MacBook Pro was $1499, which was right in line with any equivalent PC back then.

Today:

$1,399. A Dell XPS 9350, 13.4" (1920x1200)with a Core Ultra 7 processor series 2, with Windows 11 Home, 16GB of RAM, 512GB NVMe
$1,499. M3 Macbook Air 13.6" (2560x1664) with 16GB of RAM, 512GB NVMe, with a 10-core GPU and 16 core NE is $1,499.

It's a whole $100 difference.. They are basically equivalently specced. Both aluminum builds, both around 2.5lbs, both all day battery life.

I get it you don't love Mac's. No worries. I'm not a huge fanboy either. But most people are willing to upgrade to a new laptop after 5-8 years, and Apple is pretty generous on trade-ins. They also sell refurbished units, which are a great way to save a little cash as well. And they have education discounts for students, which gets you another $100 off...making that Macbook air and that XPS now the same price.

When my daughter got her M1 macbook air, I was blown away by the power, performance and incredible battery life. I didn't want to spend $1,500 on a laptop and didn't need portability, so I hunted around and got a refurb mac mini M1 that I bought in April of 2021. 8GB of RAM, 512GB NVme, and was $599. It's 3.5 years old and going great. M1 mac mini came out in Nov of 2020, and the OS then was Big Sur. Upgraded to Monterey, then Ventura, then Sonoma, and now Sequoia. So that's 5 updates. And I just checked and Apple will give me $320 trade-in for it. Not too shabby.

spapakons · Sep 27, 2024

Prices in USA are too different than here in Greece. I remember the basic MacBook (plastic, not metal) costing 1500€ with specs similar to a 500-600€ Windows laptop. I haven't checked recent prices, but there is a large difference. Macbooks are not that cheap here. For a Pro model you can give over 2000€.

hdmi · Sep 27, 2024

andrew129260 said:
thats a fair point.

But is it really? IMO everyone who has worked in IT for 30 years and uses that for a pretext to then claim to know something about Windows should also know the existence of Power Automate Desktop, or PAD (for which there exists a free version that you can get from the Microsoft Store). This app is made by Microsoft (and heavily based on Softomotive WinAutomation due to the fact that Softomotive was acquired by Microsoft in 2020). I have been familiar with WinAutomation since XP days. What makes this extra funny is that PAD is well-documented on Microsoft official website so, before people start to write documentation, my advice is to actually go and put the effort to read documentation from Microsoft. Then maybe these people can come back here and explain to us what they learned. lmao

PaulGo · Sep 27, 2024

I put Linux Mint Cinnamon on m old HP DV7-1270US laptop (2009). Over the years I upgraded the RAM to 8GB put in two SSDs and an add-on USB 3.0 which fits into the expansion port. Linux uses less memory and resources than Windows 10 and my old laptop is now fairly responsive. This version of Linux came with all the drivers to keep it fully functional. This Linux version comes with Firefox, Thunderbird and LibreOffice installed, and the GUI is similar to Windows.

spapakons · Sep 27, 2024

I think this thread has gone too far. To answer the original question, much fewer migrate from Windows to Linux that anyone would think reading the posts here. And they do it mostly because they either don't like Windows 10/11 (they have no problem with 7/8) or because they have an old unsupported computer and they think installing Linux it will by some way magic faster. It might be a little faster because Linux hasn't all these visual effects and startup applications of Windows, they are most like Windows XP. Disable all the visual effects in Windows 10/11, install proper drivers to boost performance (don't rely entirely on Windows Update, don't be lazy), disable most useless startup applications and services, and boom! Windows 10/11 is as fast as Linux if not faster and A LOT better and easier to use. Do what I suggest and see for yourselves before posting any smartass objections.

PS: For those that don't like Windows 10/11, there are customization utilities to make them look and work exactly like Windows 7/8. In my PC I have even replaced the default flat system icons with the 3D nicer Windows 7/8 icons. Just read the relevant posts in the Personalization section.

hdmi · Sep 27, 2024

SlicEnDicE said:
That's on them companies and not Linux fault.

I only care that Linux hardware and software compatibility sucks when compared to Windows. I would gladly start to care about whose fault this is. However sadly, life's too short for that stuff.

pparks1 · Sep 27, 2024

spapakons said:
Prices in USA are too different than here in Greece.

Yeah, I'm not familiar with pricing in Greece, so I can only really comment on this from my viewpoint in the US.

spapakons said:
I remember the basic MacBook (plastic, not metal) costing 1500€ with specs similar to a 500-600€ Windows laptop

The plastic polycarbonate macbooks were like 15 years ago. They have all been on an aluminum chassis since.

spapakons said:
. I haven't checked recent prices, but there is a large difference.

Perhaps in Greece. Or perhaps between comparing to the lowest piece of crap PC that you can get. But I'm talking similar specs, similar levels of power, RAM, storage, weight, battery life, etc. There aren't huge differences unless you take a Mac and upgrade everything to the absolute max...which most people do not do.

spapakons said:
Macbooks are not that cheap here. For a Pro model you can give over 2000€.

Sure, you can get $2000 MacBook pro's here too. $2,399 gets you a 14" M3 Pro, with 12 core CPU, 18 Core GPU, 16 Neural Cores, 18GB of RAM, 1TB NVME, 3 Thunderbolt 4 ports, etc. It's quite overspecced for general public consumption and isn't the intended market. You have to have pretty specific needs for machines like that.

A 13" Mabook Air with the M2 starts at $999 here. The 13" Air with M3 chip starts at 1,099, and M3 ship with 15" starts at $1,299.
A 14" Macbook Pro with M3 stats at $1,599.

pparks1 · Sep 27, 2024

spapakons said:
I think this thread has gone too far. To answer the original question, much fewer migrate from Windows to Linux that anyone would think reading the posts here.

I don't think these posts really demonstrate many moving from Windows to Linux. I think it shows that a few of us do use Linux here and there and it has it's place. If Linux was truly useless, Microsoft wouldn't have the outstanding WSL built in, but it's there and it's outstanding for those of us who want to utilize our nix terminals.

spapakons said:
PS: For those that don't like Windows 10/11, there are customization utilities to make them look and work exactly like Windows 7/8.

LOL, anytime i stumble across an old Windows 7 or XP box in the wild, I'm like......gawd....this is just terrible. I cannot remember where anything is. And I really like the 10/11 style start menu about 1000% better.

A lot of people also give Linux a try because it's free, licensing can get costly with Windows. Especially if you aren't the type who will buy the cheap ole volume license keys for $10 or whatever they charge. Buying retail copies of Windows 11 Pro from Microsoft is 199.99 here in the US.

hdmi · Sep 27, 2024

pparks1 said:
Today:

$1,399. A Dell XPS 9350, 13.4" (1920x1200)with a Core Ultra 7 processor series 2, with Windows 11 Home, 16GB of RAM, 512GB NVMe

$1,499. M3 Macbook Air 13.6" (2560x1664) with 16GB of RAM, 512GB NVMe, with a 10-core GPU and 16 core NE is $1,499.

It's a whole $100 difference.. They are basically equivalently specced. Both aluminum builds, both around 2.5lbs, both all day battery life.

I get it you don't love Mac's.

But what if I told you that I don't like Dells either?

spapakons · Sep 27, 2024

pparks1 said:
Yeah, I'm not familiar with pricing in Greece, so I can only really comment on this from my viewpoint in the US.

The plastic polycarbonate macbooks were like 15 years ago. They have all been on an aluminum chassis since.

Perhaps in Greece. Or perhaps between comparing to the lowest piece of crap PC that you can get. But I'm talking similar specs, similar levels of power, RAM, storage, weight, battery life, etc. There aren't huge differences unless you take a Mac and upgrade everything to the absolute max...which most people do not do.

Sure, you can get $2000 MacBook pro's here too. $2,399 gets you a 14" M3 Pro, with 12 core CPU, 18 Core GPU, 16 Neural Cores, 18GB of RAM, 1TB NVME, 3 Thunderbolt 4 ports, etc. It's quite overspecced for general public consumption and isn't the intended market. You have to have pretty specific needs for machines like that.

A 13" Mabook Air with the M2 starts at $999 here. The 13" Air with M3 chip starts at 1,099, and M3 ship with 15" starts at $1,299.
A 14" Macbook Pro with M3 stats at $1,599.

Minimum price for a new Mac $999 while most people needs can be covered with a Windows laptop costing less than half that. Not everyone needs too many cores and to much RAM on his laptop. So Macs ARE unnecessarily more expensive than PCs and the hardware doesn't justify the high price.

SlicEnDicE · Sep 27, 2024

The laptop market pricing is very similar in EU compared to the US.

What comes to laptop pricing in general. A 1000€ MacBook will definitely outperform both visually, battery and software performance wise any Windows PC at same pricepoint or lower. The difference is HUGE.

I use Windows laptops ranging from 1500-2500€ and none can keep up with the latest Macs. Not getting even close. Unless sacrificing battery life from 10h+ to barely 3h and even less.

I'm no Mac fanboy and I despise Apple for being Apple, but that does not change the fact that Macs are very good at what they were designed to be.

hdmi · Sep 27, 2024

spapakons said:
Apple employs planned obsolesce to make everyone replace their Macs with new models every few years. Intel based Macs could at least be formatted and install Windows or Linux if you cannot upgrade to the newer Mac OS, so they get a little longer life. Apple Silicon Macs cannot run Windows or Linux. Yes, I know there is a Linux project for M1 and M2 but this is still in alpha stage and the current Macs will probably be obsolete and replaced before it gets stable. Also I know you can install Parallels and run Windows there, but it is more like running Windows in a virtual machine, you don't have the same performance you would get if Windows would run natively there. So eventually after 3-4 Mac OS versions (that is 5 years max), your VERY expensive Mac (over 3 times the price of a PC with the SAME performance) cannot be upgraded anymore and you are stuck with an obsolete Mac OS version that virtually no application can be upgraded. Of course Apple makes sure you cannot find older versions of the same applications in Apple Store, so unless you had a specific application in your Apple ID, there is virtually no way to download and install it in your old Mac. Hence you are forced to replace your Mac. Microsoft might have given FAKE system requirements for Windows 11, but they never forced us to replace our PC. We still have the Windows 10 option plus that we can force Windows 11 on unsupported PCs by bypassing compatibility check with methods "leaked" from Microsoft themselves (coincidence? I don't think so). Even using an older version of Windows such as Windows 7, you still find many current applications to work with, unlike Mac OS. Back to Linux, if you have a rather old version the repositories no longer work and it is very difficult to find applications outside the repositories. Upgrading to a newer version is not straightforward, you may have to do sequential upgrades to reach a current version with high risk to something going wrong and render the system unbootable. Essentially your only option is to format your drive and do a clean installation of the new version with all the consequences of installing Linux from scratch.

It isn't just the planned obsolescing that makes me steer clear of everything that is made by Apple. I just don't like their walled garden approach that heavily cripples available software choices even much further than planned obsolescing does. A true Mac fanboy will tell you that the planned obsolescing is a nonissue, and will then quickly move on to stressing the fact that old Apple products still hold enough value for them to still be able to be sold on the used market at a price that compensates the typical high cost that is commonly associated with new Apple products, to a degree that is large enough to justify this added expense, as this is what lowers that expense in the long run.

So basically, it's a ponzi scheme in many respects, also because the hardware often pans out to be more about perceived quality vs real quality, and about fashion vs those specifc tech specs that factually matter, or that matter purely in the technological sense as opposed to what is known as the Veblen Effect. I.e., playing the numbers game when it comes to specs, and playing it in such a particular way that it gets obfuscated by fashion in addition to all that (fake) marketing that Apple keeps on getting as a free gift from the very numerous Apple fanboys, which is pretty obvious IMO. Case in point: back in the day when Apple was still selling 2 years old graphics cards at the price of 2 months old graphics cards, you didn't need to own an Apple product to be able to see it in an instant the fact that Apple was selling 2 years old graphics cards at the price of 2 months old graphics cards.

spapakons · Sep 27, 2024

Just a quick 2024 price comparison, according to www.skroutz.gr (a site comparing prices from many stores), the cheaper MacBook here in Greece is

Apple MacBook Air 13" (2024) 13.6" Retina Display (M3-8-core/8GB/256GB SSD) Space Gray (US Keyboard)

at 1318€.

I am not familiar with the Apple M3 CPU, but I find 8GB RAM and 256GB SSD too small for such expensive laptop!

At almost this price, 1316€ you get

HP Victus 15-fa0122nw 15.6" IPS FHD 144Hz (i5-12450H/16GB/512GB SSD/GeForce RTX 3050/No OS) (US Keyboard)

with double the RAM and double the SSD and discrete graphics card (much better than onboard graphics). Sure, it doesn't come with Windows, but if you have a previous license you can use, this is not an issue. To get it with Windows you add 99€ or less, depending on the store and the deal.

You want Windows? For 1318€ you get

Dell Latitude 5440 14" IPS FHD (i5-1345U/16GB/512GB SSD/W11 Pro) (US Keyboard)

again with double the RAM and double the SSD than the Mac.

And as I already said, most people needs are covered with a laptop costing less than half this price, such as

Lenovo V15 G4 AMN 15.6" FHD (Ryzen 3-7320U/8GB/256GB SSD/No OS) Business Black (GR Keyboard)

at 279€.

For those who doubt, just open www.skroutz.gr and confirm the prices.

So please stop trying to convince us a Mac is similarly priced to a Windows laptop. It is not. For Apple you don't get what you pay for, you get far less than that. Sorry, I don't have money to burn, I stick with Windows.

pparks1 · Sep 27, 2024

spapakons said:
Minimum price for a new Mac $999 while most people needs can be covered with a Windows laptop costing less than half that.

I mean for most people, they can get by on their cell phones for what they do (email, facebook and amazon). Most of them spend more than $500 on their phones.

I agree, Apple does not really make a budget low end laptop. If all you want is to get by, by all means buy a $300-$500 windows laptop. It will indeed to the basics.

The entry level Macbook Air will cost you almost 2x as much, but will also provide.

Alumimum chassis versus plastic
Way higher resolution screen, very few $500 windows laptops go over 1080p.
Brightness and color accuracy going to be far better on the Mac (500 nits, verus about 200-300 on a $500 windows laptop)
Better battery life due to great efficiency of the M1 chip. All day battery life for a student is a godsend.
Trackpad and gesture support on the mac is top notch. cheap windows laptops have pretty crappy trackpads.
weight is almost always going to be about 30% lighter on the Mac, and if you are a student carrying it all day...that makes a sizeable difference
I've yet to see any cheap $500 windows laptop offer USB 4 or Thunderbolt ports. For external storage, multiple displays, etc.....these are a really nice to have.

spapakons said:
Not everyone needs too many cores and to much RAM on his laptop. So Macs ARE unnecessarily more expensive than PCs and the hardware doesn't justify the high price.

If you don't feel the hardware differences justify the extra costs, I'm not going to change your mind.

For my dollars, I'll happily pay a bit more for a better screen, better battery life, very durable build quality, low weight, and Thunderbolt/USB 4 ports. It doesn't have to be in a Mac, but I'm never going to be the type that is happy with a $500 windows laptop.

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