Windows 12 ! Already....

TM21 · Jul 23, 2023

All the talk about TPM may just as well be talk about what's the best rocket fuel to use, to get to Mars.
I don't know, and I don't care, because none of my 13 computers has it, cept maybe for that #$^$ HP Laptop that was gifted to me earlier this year. It had Windows 10 (something) on it, and it was way slower than my C-64.
I cracked it like an oyster, pulled out the Optane memory, and the 1TB spinner, and put in 16 GB of Crucial ram, in addition the the 4GB that was already installed, and a nice little SSD. I then installed Windows 10/Pro/64 on it and today it's running just fine, (with MS Updates turned OFF), of course!

Just this morning, I connected an old 350GB Samsung HD that was original set up on an old eMachine, years ago, with Windows 8.1/Pro/32 on it, to the same PC I'm on now, running Windows 11/Pro/64. On boot up, it asked me to wait a minute while is set up some things. Similar to the comments I'd get on a clean install. Then it came up with my desktop, just like it used to on the old eMachine. Everything worked! It's just like it had always been there. And it's not tied to MS in any way.
The only similarity between the old eMachine and the much newer, and more powerful PC I'm on now, is the AMD cpu.
Everything else is different. But Windows 8.1 didn't seem to care. It just snuggled in, loaded a few drivers and was ready to GO, with never a whimper.
That's something I always liked about 8.1, , , I can move it anywhere and it just makes itself right at home.
Windows 10 and 11 are very similar, by the way.

I have no doubts at all, that when MS finally releases Windows 12, if indeed that's what they call it, the Aftermarket guys will clean out the crap and make it compatible for all our old equipment. TMP? Forgetaboutit!!!

Scannerman · Jul 24, 2023

TechnoMage2021 said:
All the talk about TPM may just as well be talk about what's the best rocket fuel to use, to get to Mars.
I don't know, and I don't care, because none of my 13 computers has it, cept maybe for that #$^$ HP Laptop that was gifted to me earlier this year. It had Windows 10 (something) on it, and it was way slower than my C-64.
I cracked it like an oyster, pulled out the Optane memory, and the 1TB spinner, and put in 16 GB of Crucial ram, in addition the the 4GB that was already installed, and a nice little SSD. I then installed Windows 10/Pro/64 on it and today it's running just fine, (with MS Updates turned OFF), of course!

Just this morning, I connected an old 350GB Samsung HD that was original set up on an old eMachine, years ago, with Windows 8.1/Pro/32 on it, to the same PC I'm on now, running Windows 11/Pro/64. On boot up, it asked me to wait a minute while is set up some things. Similar to the comments I'd get on a clean install. Then it came up with my desktop, just like it used to on the old eMachine. Everything worked! It's just like it had always been there. And it's not tied to MS in any way.
The only similarity between the old eMachine and the much newer, and more powerful PC I'm on now, is the AMD cpu.
Everything else is different. But Windows 8.1 didn't seem to care. It just snuggled in, loaded a few drivers and was ready to GO, with never a whimper.
That's something I always liked about 8.1, , , I can move it anywhere and it just makes itself right at home.
Windows 10 and 11 are very similar, by the way.

I have no doubts at all, that when MS finally releases Windows 12, if indeed that's what they call it, the Aftermarket guys will clean out the crap and make it compatible for all our old equipment. TMP? Forgetaboutit!!!

Since you're old enough to be my dad, I'll call you "gramps", Wizmeister. (And that is a term of endearment.) I wish I could say the same for my 22 computers, but some of them border on being current and not unlike yourself my latest laptop has TPM2. I shudder to think what would happen if I tried to put Linux on it, but just getting the dadblamed thing open looks to be quite a chore and my eyes ain't what they used to be.

I have a sickening gut feeling that my laptop might also have that [discontinued] Optane NVMe in it also and I'm not in the mood to look. Perhaps I will one day when the warranty comes off. I'll probably need a spark plug gauge and a stiletto first. Unfortunately that laptop is running an i7 Intel chip so there's no guarantee it'll be safe from a Spectre/Meltdown or whatever hybrid bugaboos. I don't think Intel ever did get that nailed down at the physical architectural level. Perhaps the i9 line is safe. I dunno. I got the laptop coz it seemed like a good idea at the time. Silly me.

I'd be really excited if Win 12 excluded TPM altogether or simply made it an optional feature like it used to be. The reason Win 8.1 is so easy and sleazy is simple: It's a tablet OS. They designed it to fit in your kitchen sink, or your fit bit, or your Dick Tracey watch. (Only kids our ages are going to get that last one.) There's not much to it. It's like they wanted to make a zippy little metro car and decided, "Hey, all these extra tools and parts weigh a ton. Let's chuck 'em coz most folks won't use 'em anyway". That's likely why Win 8 was such a catastrophic failure. Once they put some of those things back (to the exclusion of others) 8.1 was good to go. Windows 7 Ultimate is the semi tractor trailer with enough tools and parts in the back to rebuild the engine. Once Win7 U picks up enough momentum it squash that 8.1 beetlebug like a pancake and keep on truckin'. Windows 12 needs to be like that. Sure. They can have "lite" version too, for kids who mainly just like to text and social network.

It would be nice to see Microsoft make a real operating system again.

spapakons · Jul 24, 2023

Scannerman said:
I care because privacy is a bigger deal than most people realize. TPM is a bad idea, not because it is a potentially effective security device, but because it's a CONSISTENT FAILURE and it's not very user friendly. Jody is a Windows user. He pokes a lot of fun at Linux too. To just write off a guy's point of view simply because he might be a "Linux fan" is quite a slight.

Myself, I try to stay objective. Linux has many good features and so does Windows. I poke fun at both operating systems all the time. I don't write them off. (Although many times I've been tempted to do this with Windoze.) Sadly, I've been at the wrong end of TPM and clearly Jody has a point. When the only OS you can install on your PC is Windows because that's all your hardware will let you install it's time to find new hardware. (OR "other" hardware.) When Windows makes it so that you have to install their OS to the exclusion of all others in order to use it that's what we called "dirty pool" back in the day.

Corporate monopolies are dangerous things. They kill free enterprise and they kill the spirit of capitalism because they kill the competition. They put people back into a feudal system and destroy liberty. Checks and balances are necessary. That's why we need competition in an open and free Society. To say that you have nothing to concern yourself with if you have nothing to hide is an extremest view. Herr Goebels pretty much said the same thing. This is not the sort of propaganda that thinking people need to hear. Edward Snowden isn't in Russia because he thought it might be a nice place to live.

Unless you are a big fan of Klaus Schwab you will appreciate the right to privacy and the private ownership of property. Owning your own mind, your own feelings, your own stuff, and your own space, is vital to your mental and physical health. It isn't merely about having something to hide, although sometimes having such is a good thing. It's about liberty and autonomy, having your own identity. It's about being your own person instead of becoming the property of someone else.

Seriously. If privacy isn't important then why on earth is all this "security" stuff such a big deal? Microsoft should just drop all it's security features along with TPM if that is the case. Myself, I think they should drop TPM and come up with something more user friendly and efficient. The whole Famdamlee of the present day Consortium Syndicate should do likewise. We need to keep our options.

OF COURSE.... This is only my personal opinion, but since you expressed yours I thought I'd share my own. cheers!

If you think Linux applications don't "spy" on you, think again. Your browser takes "statistics" of your browsing habits in order to present you relevant ads. Other applications send user "statistics" on the developer with the excuse to fix bugs and add new features. Exactly what data they gather the same applications in Windows, they do so in Linux. Everybody knows the urban legend that using Linux makes you "immune" to viruses and malware. No it doesn't, just the hackers don't bother to attack a small user base. They focus on Windows in order their attacks to have the maximum impact. Some users have non-legit software on their Windows systems and they fear Microsoft or other companies might find out and lock that software. They are not concerned solely about privacy, they just want to hide these applications. That's why I said "if you have nothing to hide", I was referring to the non-legit software, not to your private data. Apart from sending you appropriate ads, Microsoft and others don't give a cent about your precious data. Let's don't get paranoid here.

Scannerman · Jul 24, 2023

spapakons said:
If you think Linux applications don't "spy" on you, think again. Your browser takes "statistics" of your browsing habits in order to present you relevant ads. Other applications send user "statistics" on the developer with the excuse to fix bugs and add new features. Exactly what data they gather the same applications in Windows, they do so in Linux. Everybody knows the urban legend that using Linux makes you "immune" to viruses and malware. No it doesn't, just the hackers don't bother to attack a small user base. They focus on Windows in order their attacks to have the maximum impact. Some users have non-legit software on their Windows systems and they fear Microsoft or other companies might find out and lock that software. They are not concerned solely about privacy, they just want to hide these applications. That's why I said "if you have nothing to hide", I was referring to the non-legit software, not to your private data. Apart from sending you appropriate ads, Microsoft and others don't give a cent about your precious data. Let's don't get paranoid here.

Who's getting paranoid? It is what it is. One thing I'm pretty sure Linux isn't providing is a built-in key logger. I don't dispute that the urban legend is just what it is. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Only more reason competition should thrive in a free and open Society and why monopolies are dangerous. We need to avoid the illusion of choice and keep real, genuine options alive. I think it's very sad that in the name of "security" so many companies are evidently agreeing to fleece us and lift up the Microshaft monopoly banner to the extent that we can't exercise those options. My hardware is my property.

True enough, if I don't like using the MS OS, I don't have to. Seems a bit of a shame though considering that they too are an option, or at least were an option once upon a time. Establishing a Consortium that generates an environment that practically forces one to use the MS OS to the exclusion of all others is not fair ball. I'm not Microsnot's bitch. I'm a polygamist at heart. At least I'm being honest. Seems to me there's a whole lot of nasty undertakings being executed in the name of so-called "security" and I'm not buying it. These folks have been caught with their hand in the cookie jar far too many times.

johnlgalt · Jul 24, 2023

I, too, had all sorts of issues with the fTPM that AMD implemented within their CPUs.

But I took a different route - I broke down and spent $20 and got a physical TPM module for my mobo.

Absolutely 0 issues since then. As in no issues with clean installing the OS (multiple times now since I installed it), no issues with upgrading the UEFI firmware (also multiple times now since installation), and most importantly, it just works the way it is supposed to.

I cannot speak for anyone else's issues and experiences, but it was the best $20 I spent on this rig, hands down. And considering the total price of the rig exceeded $5000 when I built it, it's even more of a bargain IMO.

Scannerman · Jul 24, 2023

johnlgalt said:
I, too, had all sorts of issues with the fTPM that AMD implemented within their CPUs.

But I took a different route - I broke down and spent $20 and got a physical TPM module for my mobo.

Absolutely 0 issues since then. As in no issues with clean installing the OS (multiple times now since I installed it), no issues with upgrading the UEFI firmware (also multiple times now since installation), and most importantly, it just works the way it is supposed to.

I cannot speak for anyone else's issues and experiences, but it was the best $20 I spent on this rig, hands down. And considering the total price of the rig exceeded $5000 when I built it, it's even more of a bargain IMO.

Yup. I considered that myself. Then I did some research first. I posted an article (likely in this forum) about how those don't really always solve the issue with TPM. I believe the article was from Tom's. I'm glad it worked for you though. Perhaps it is different with AMD. Lately, Intel has been producing all sorts of issues: Optane, IRST, TBMT, etc. with Windows 11. I just read on their site today that these issues are a result of Microsoft's security protocols. uh-huh... They won't be fixing it.

spapakons · Jul 24, 2023

The solution is simple. Stop trying to make your system compliant. Just bypass compatibility check and install Windows 11 without meeting all the requirements. NOTHING changes in terms of security or feature availablity or compatibility. You get the same Windows 11 experience. As for relatively new Intel systems, I would do a clean installation of Windows 11 and then download and install the latest Intel chipset driver for 6th generation and newer. Then install the IRST driver, if have not done it already. Then the graphics drivers and anything else. I believe that way all devices will work without any issues in Device Manager. The key part is to install the chipset driver because any other device depends on that.

Scannerman · Jul 24, 2023

My bad, John. The article was from PCmag.com. Here's the quote:

"But it’s not as simple as buying a TPM 2.0 add-on module and plugging it into the header. Even if you’ve got a hardware TPM installed in your home-built computer, you’ll need to ensure that it’s properly set up in the BIOS for the Windows operating system to recognize it. This process varies widely based on which motherboard and CPU you're using; see the guide mentioned above for more information and links to instructions from some major PC manufacturers."

Here's the link:

What Is a TPM, and Why Do I Need One for Windows 11?

Microsoft Windows 11 requires a PC with Trusted Platform Module (TPM), a cause for uncertainty among upgraders and PC builders. What exactly is a TPM? Do you already have one? We explain.

www.pcmag.com

I suppose for me, I don't know if I want to mess up my BIOS with something I'm not sure will work.

spapakons said:
The solution is simple. Stop trying to make your system compliant. Just bypass compatibility check and install Windows 11 without meeting all the requirements. NOTHING changes in terms of security or feature availablity or compatibility. You get the same Windows 11 experience. As for relatively new Intel systems, I would do a clean installation of Windows 11 and then download and install the latest Intel chipset driver for 6th generation and newer. Then install the IRST driver, if have not done it already. Then the graphics drivers and anything else. I believe that way all devices will work without any issues in Device Manager. The key part is to install the chipset driver because any other device depends on that.

Funny you should mention this. I tried to install IRST on Win 11 today. It was an utter failure. I had to laugh at the message I got. It said that I already had a newer version installed! I had to search the PC for this "newer version". If it exists it sure is good at hiding. I never found it. Once again: Windows 11 does NOT have all the drivers covered — especially not older drivers.

My gen 6 Chipset is current. I had to trash Optane because it crashed my 8.1 and Intel no longer supports it. Intel no longer supports Optane because of Microsoft's security measures. I got that information directly from Intel. If you go to Intel's website you'll see that all the IRST stuff is for NUC now because NUC is their own baby. Intel's soft RAID is still working on my PC because I still have Win 7 but the RST OS interface is dead. That just happened recently. How sad.

johnlgalt · Jul 25, 2023

Scannerman said:
My bad, John. The article was from PCmag.com. Here's the quote:

"But it’s not as simple as buying a TPM 2.0 add-on module and plugging it into the header. Even if you’ve got a hardware TPM installed in your home-built computer, you’ll need to ensure that it’s properly set up in the BIOS for the Windows operating system to recognize it. This process varies widely based on which motherboard and CPU you're using; see the guide mentioned above for more information and links to instructions from some major PC manufacturers."

Here's the link:

What Is a TPM, and Why Do I Need One for Windows 11?

Microsoft Windows 11 requires a PC with Trusted Platform Module (TPM), a cause for uncertainty among upgraders and PC builders. What exactly is a TPM? Do you already have one? We explain.

www.pcmag.com

I suppose for me, I don't know if I want to mess up my BIOS with something I'm not sure will work.

Funny you should mention this. I tried to install IRST on Win 11 today. It was an utter failure. I had to laugh at the message I got. It said that I already had a newer version installed! I had to search the PC for this "newer version". If it exists it sure is good at hiding. I never found it. Once again: Windows 11 does NOT have all the drivers covered — especially not older drivers.

My gen 6 Chipset is current. I had to trash Optane because it crashed my 8.1 and Intel no longer supports it. Intel no longer supports Optane because of Microsoft's security measures. I got that information directly from Intel. If you go to Intel's website you'll see that all the IRST stuff is for NUC now because NUC is their own baby. Intel's soft RAID is still working on my PC because I still have Win 7 but the RST OS interface is dead. That just happened recently. How sad.

Actually, it's not all that hard, but I can see where some manufacturers might make it impossible to deal with.

With my MSI board, once it was installed and I entered the UEFI firmware settings, the setting for selecting the TPM implementation simply added an additional option that was selectable. Without the physical TPM installed, the drop down showed only fTPM, but with it installed, there were two options - fTPM and the physical TPM. It was simply a matter of swapping it over to the physical TPM, setting it to erase the current store, and reboot (did the erase just in case it was ever plugged in anywhere before). After that, it remained selected through multiple reboots, and after a UEFI firmware (BIOS) update, I just had to remember to go back and set it again.

It's the same, really, as adding other hardware that is not necessarily plug and play. Just gotta remember to set it up again when the UEFI firmware is updated.

Of course, there is also the fact that not too long after that, MSI released the first UEFI firmware package update that specifically stated "Windows 11 compatibility", almost 6 months after Windows 11 was released lol. SO, there is the possibility that hte issues were simply because the (then current) UEFI firmware simply wasn't utilizing the fTPM appropriately, and thus whenever I updated it was screwing something up. I mean, it is MSI lol.

But, I did have one or two firmware updates that were prior to the official "Windows 11 compatible" firmware and they also posed no problem, so I'm relative sure that it was the fTPM versus the physical TPM.

spapakons said:
The solution is simple. Stop trying to make your system compliant. Just bypass compatibility check and install Windows 11 without meeting all the requirements. NOTHING changes in terms of security or feature availablity or compatibility. You get the same Windows 11 experience. As for relatively new Intel systems, I would do a clean installation of Windows 11 and then download and install the latest Intel chipset driver for 6th generation and newer. Then install the IRST driver, if have not done it already. Then the graphics drivers and anything else. I believe that way all devices will work without any issues in Device Manager. The key part is to install the chipset driver because any other device depends on that.

Sure. Right now.

But if I can have a compatible system, why shouldn't I? I'm rock solid in my rig, and I don't have to use any backwards methods that might render my system unbootable after some update or another from Microsoft.

What works for you is not necessarily a universal solution for everyone.

spapakons · Jul 25, 2023

Download the IRST driver for NUC. If there is a choice, go for the ZIP version abd extract it to a folder to have easy access to the files. Then go at Device Manager and force install the downloaded driver (install/update driver manually, second option, select from a list, second option again, have disk).

spapakons · Jul 25, 2023

The same fears were in the initial 21H2 release. What it Microsoft issues an update and makes any non-compliant system stop working? Well, this didn't happen. What is the difference with compliant systems is that we were not offered the 22H2 through Windows Update. Every other updates installed without further compatibility check and no any issues except the known issues that also affected the compliant systems. We had to manually download the 22H2 ISO and bypass compatibility check in order to upgrade from 21H2 to 22H2. We probably will also do that to upgrade to 23H2. All other updates are offered as normal in Windows Update and install without any issues (except the known issues) on unsupported computers. So far we are not locked out and I don't think we will. As long as we have a legitimate Windows license, Microsoft has no interest to stop us. They put the hardware requirements in collaboration with hardware manufacturers. If they wanted to prevent unsupported computers from running Windows 11, I guess they would have done it by now. Don't forget that the Registry hacks to clean install Windows 11 on unsupported computers leaked from Microsoft themselves.

johnlgalt · Jul 25, 2023

Until Windows Vista, the user ran with full privileges over the OS.

Then came UAC, and a lot of things started changing. If you want to believe that they will continue to not make those checks, go right ahead.

Meanwhile, I'll continue to use my machine the way they intended to so I don't have any unintended hiccups.

spapakons · Jul 25, 2023

That is what they are trying to do. Scare us to upgrade our systems or buy new. For most Windows 11 users they succeeded. Remember the panic with Vista? They all rushed to replace their graphics cards in order to have WDDM drivers. Most even replaced their computers. Eventually we found out that their existing graphics cards CAN be used in Vista 32-bit with the Windows XP drivers (XPDM mode) and full hardware acceleration. They only missed Aero effects. If you wanted Aero effects you needed a graphics card with WDDM drivers. Using your old unsupported graphics card with the XP drivers (XPDM mode) you missed nothing in performance. Only the fancy Aero effects. Not really big deal.

Scannerman · Jul 25, 2023

spapakons said:
That is what they are trying to do. Scare us to upgrade our systems or buy new. For most Windows 11 users they succeeded. Remember the panic with Vista? They all rushed to replace their graphics cards in order to have WDDM drivers. Most even replaced their computers. Eventually we found out that their existing graphics cards CAN be used in Vista 32-bit with the Windows XP drivers (XPDM mode) and full hardware acceleration. They only missed Aero effects. If you wanted Aero effects you needed a graphics card with WDDM drivers. Using your old unsupported graphics card with the XP drivers (XPDM mode) you missed nothing in performance. Only the fancy Aero effects. Not really big deal.

I remember this and I have to say that I wholeheartedly agree; but I've a feeling the mandatory TPM requirements are not going to go away. So, if buying a cheap 20 dollar plug fixes it what's to lose? It's an option and options are what we all need. Alas, I think it should be clear that options are precisely what is being removed from us compliments of the (oh, let's call it what it is) Syndicate. No paranoia about it. It's happening whether we like it or not. I'm still pretty new to Win 11. Does Win 11 even have compatibility mode??

johnlgalt said:
Actually, it's not all that hard, but I can see where some manufacturers might make it impossible to deal with.

With my MSI board, once it was installed and I entered the UEFI firmware settings, the setting for selecting the TPM implementation simply added an additional option that was selectable. Without the physical TPM installed, the drop down showed only fTPM, but with it installed, there were two options - fTPM and the physical TPM. It was simply a matter of swapping it over to the physical TPM, setting it to erase the current store, and reboot (did the erase just in case it was ever plugged in anywhere before). After that, it remained selected through multiple reboots, and after a UEFI firmware (BIOS) update, I just had to remember to go back and set it again.

It's the same, really, as adding other hardware that is not necessarily plug and play. Just gotta remember to set it up again when the UEFI firmware is updated.

Of course, there is also the fact that not too long after that, MSI released the first UEFI firmware package update that specifically stated "Windows 11 compatibility", almost 6 months after Windows 11 was released lol. SO, there is the possibility that hte issues were simply because the (then current) UEFI firmware simply wasn't utilizing the fTPM appropriately, and thus whenever I updated it was screwing something up. I mean, it is MSI lol.

But, I did have one or two firmware updates that were prior to the official "Windows 11 compatible" firmware and they also posed no problem, so I'm relative sure that it was the fTPM versus the physical TPM.

Sure. Right now.

But if I can have a compatible system, why shouldn't I? I'm rock solid in my rig, and I don't have to use any backwards methods that might render my system unbootable after some update or another from Microsoft.

What works for you is not necessarily a universal solution for everyone. ← This. Is so true it bears repeating.

Myself, I wouldn't hesitate trying that plug, dongle, "KEY" if it were not for the fact that it could potentially mess up more than just my Win 11, which is already beginning to look like a grand joke. My IRST is evidently hanging on by a shoe string. As for my boot strap, I value my multi-boot and I've already lost one, no, make that two, OS because of all this "security" B.S. I think what John has shared here is valuable information because AMD systems are considerably different. (Maybe even better.) The irony is that my X570 CROSSHAIR HERO actually qualifies legitimately for the Win 11 upgrade and attempting to do so resulted in yet another catastrophic system failure. I mean, man... I lost everything. Oh sure, I had backups. Big deal. What a waste of time. The system wouldn't even grant me a roll back because there was no system left to roll back to. I had to reinstall so I went back to Win 10. I was so hoping NOT to have to do this that I called Microsoft. Here's some sage advice:

1. When you're having problems with your PC never call Microsoft. Odds are, you know more about fixing your issue than they do.

2. When Microsoft says you do something at your own risk they are simply reminding you that installing anything made by them is ALWAYS at your own risk. So it really does not matter if what you do is in line with their EULA or not, because no matter what you choose to do you will never be able to hold them liable. No, not ever. That EULA is made for their own protection - not yours.

3. TPM is the same. You use it at your own risk. No matter what happens to your data or hardware you will not be able to hold the SYNDICATE (aka "consortium") running the protection racket liable. TPM is a protection racket. This is as clear as day. It might kinda sorta maybe provide a temporary measure, or semblance of security for a time, but in the long run it's just another excuse to make you pay more and buy more with precious little to show for your expense.

So Spapakons makes a valid point when he says STOP trying to be compliant. And again, if you have a simple system (my system is anything but) and you don't mind risking the bother of using something that may or may not work OR, only works temporarily until you need to flash your BIOS OR, it's simply for recreational and experi-Mental reasons... A 20 dollar plug seems reasonable. I'm tempted to get one just for kicks. One thing is certain: It won't be going on my work station.

No, this old codger is gonna ride off into the sunset and let WINDOWS 12 crash and burn all on its lonesome. At least I can say I am the proud owner of a 7/11 (even if it's only a PC). UEFI was a big enough jump for this cat. In some ways I still miss using a genuine BIOS. Perhaps this winter I'll be able to put a little Mint sauce on the side!

Someone needs to develop some decent multi-boot software for Win 11 that includes Linux.

Scannerman · Jul 25, 2023

spapakons said:
Download the IRST driver for NUC. If there is a choice, go for the ZIP version abd extract it to a folder to have easy access to the files. Then go at Device Manager and force install the downloaded driver (install/update driver manually, second option, select from a list, second option again, have disk).

I have the original driver disc. It won't work because of the net framework limitations. But sure. Why not NUC my Win 11? What have I got to lose?

OOOPS! :winkt:

spapakons · Jul 25, 2023

Don't run Setup, just extract the driver files and try force it from Device Manager. Also have you tried downloading the driver from your PC manufacturer (Asus, Dell etc) ? Have you tried this Intel driver : Intel® Rapid Storage Technology Driver Installation Software with Intel® Optane™ Memory (10th and 11th Gen Platforms)

johnlgalt · Jul 25, 2023

spapakons said:
That is what they are trying to do. Scare us to upgrade our systems or buy new. For most Windows 11 users they succeeded. Remember the panic with Vista? They all rushed to replace their graphics cards in order to have WDDM drivers. Most even replaced their computers. Eventually we found out that their existing graphics cards CAN be used in Vista 32-bit with the Windows XP drivers (XPDM mode) and full hardware acceleration. They only missed Aero effects. If you wanted Aero effects you needed a graphics card with WDDM drivers. Using your old unsupported graphics card with the XP drivers (XPDM mode) you missed nothing in performance. Only the fancy Aero effects. Not really big deal.

Not video cards, but I had more than a couple of printers that the manufacturer did not upgrade drivers for so would not work with Vista / 7 at all.

And it's not a scare tactic. It's planned obsolescence. A slightly different take, but nonetheless, along the lines of what you say.

Personally, though, I prefer the security. You may not like it - but too many #%^$#@%^ end users out there who have 0 clue as to PC security and how to stay safe. If Linux has been doing security like this all along, why is it wrong for Microsoft to start implementing it?

Scannerman said:
I remember this and I have to say that I wholeheartedly agree; but I've a feeling the mandatory TPM requirements are not going to go away. So, if buying a cheap 20 dollar plug fixes it what's to lose? It's an option and options are what we all need. Alas, I think it should be clear that options are precisely what is being removed from us compliments of the (oh, let's call it what it is) Syndicate. No paranoia about it. It's happening whether we like it or not. I'm still pretty new to Win 11. Does Win 11 even have compatibility mode??

Myself, I wouldn't hesitate trying that plug, dongle, "KEY" if it were not for the fact that it could potentially mess up more than just my Win 11, which is already beginning to look like a grand joke. My IRST is evidently hanging on by a shoe string. As for my boot strap, I value my multi-boot and I've already lost one, no, make that two, OS because of all this "security" B.S. I think what John has shared here is valuable information because AMD systems are considerably different. (Maybe even better.) The irony is that my X570 CROSSHAIR HERO actually qualifies legitimately for the Win 11 upgrade and attempting to do so resulted in yet another catastrophic system failure. I mean, man... I lost everything. Oh sure, I had backups. Big deal. What a waste of time. The system wouldn't even grant me a roll back because there was no system left to roll back to. I had to reinstall so I went back to Win 10. I was so hoping NOT to have to do this that I called Microsoft. Here's some sage advice:

1. When you're having problems with your PC never call Microsoft. Odds are, you know more about fixing your issue than they do.

2. When Microsoft says you do something at your own risk they are simply reminding you that installing anything made by them is ALWAYS at your own risk. So it really does not matter if what you do is in line with their EULA or not, because no matter what you choose to do you will never be able to hold them liable. No, not ever. That EULA is made for their own protection - not yours.

3. TPM is the same. You use it at your own risk. No matter what happens to your data or hardware you will not be able to hold the SYNDICATE (aka "consortium") running the protection racket liable. TPM is a protection racket. This is as clear as day. It might kinda sorta maybe provide a temporary measure, or semblance of security for a time, but in the long run it's just another excuse to make you pay more and buy more with precious little to show for your expense.

So Spapakons makes a valid point when he says STOP trying to be compliant. And again, if you have a simple system (my system is anything but) and you don't mind risking the bother of using something that may or may not work OR, only works temporarily until you need to flash your BIOS OR, it's simply for recreational and experi-Mental reasons... A 20 dollar plug seems reasonable. I'm tempted to get one just for kicks. One thing is certain: It won't be going on my work station.

No, this old codger is gonna ride off into the sunset and let WINDOWS 12 crash and burn all on its lonesome. At least I can say I am the proud owner of a 7/11 (even if it's only a PC). UEFI was a big enough jump for this cat. In some ways I still miss using a genuine BIOS. Perhaps this winter I'll be able to put a little Mint sauce on the side!

Someone needs to develop some decent multi-boot software for Win 11 that includes Linux.

Turns out I had a new UEFI Firmware update waiting for me.

So, I installed it this morning, and then went back and set up TPM to use the physical module (apologies for the blurriness, I snapped the pics really quickly as I needed to get my system back up and running):

Technically, after disabling fTPM I shouldn't need to change the value of Device Select but I always set it manually anyway, just in case the value for AMD fTPM Switch gets altered back, the value underneath will still bne (hopefully!) set to use the physical module.

Of course, there is also the fact that I've probably performed over ten thousand BIOS and UEFI firmware updates in my lifetime, and this particular rig, alone, I've probably performed something on the order of 20 (unique) UEFI firmware updates, so I know exactly where to go. That definitely helps a lot.

Scannerman said:
I have the original driver disc. It won't work because of the net framework limitations. But sure. Why not NUC my Win 11? What have I got to lose?

OOOPS!

Interesting. Normally when I see that message, it results from attempting to install a 32 bit driver in a 64 bit OS. I didn't realize that Intel's setup gives virtually the same error message because of a .Net imcompatibility (and that should never be the case, because .Net is supposed to be interoperable in the first place).

Gotta love Intel. Lol.

spapakons · Jul 25, 2023

If you read the message carefully, it prompts you to download the more appropriate driver from your computer or motherboard manufacturer. Have you? Also you can try the latest generic Intel driver, see link in my previous post.

Scannerman · Jul 26, 2023

spapakons said:
Don't run Setup, just extract the driver files and try force it from Device Manager. Also have you tried downloading the driver from your PC manufacturer (Asus, Dell etc) ? Have you tried this Intel driver : Intel® Rapid Storage Technology Driver Installation Software with Intel® Optane™ Memory (10th and 11th Gen Platforms)

That's not really the IRST I'm referring to and yes, I have that on Win11 but it's not much of a replacement for the good ole fashioned IRST. This is more of an Optane application that Intel gives to users like me as a consolation for killing IRST. Yeah, I know what they call it but that ain't it. This is something other and once they gave us this they dropped Optane like a hot potato. Solidigm handles Optane now. As I stated, I have the original IRST ap and drivers on disc. ASUS discontinued support for IRST on the X99-E WS USB 3.1 in 2017. They have no more updates for it. Their latest one is dated 2016.

How to explain this: Intel soft RAID is still running in the system. I still get the pretty green text (although I had to fight to get it back after installing Win 11) on boot. What I don't get is the 'wizard', the RST interface via the OS. It's dead, Jim. When I try to start it from "component services" it just shuts off again immediately. If it were not for Windows 7 (where I would really like to make this come alive again) I rather doubt that I'd even have my Intel soft RAID arrays. Anyway, uninstalling Win 7 is not a risk I want to take. It was the only OS I had left that actually gave me an interface from the OS to IRST. I'm not referring to the formerly supported by Intel (but no longer) driver you shared here. Once again: Windows 11 does not support all older drivers. In fact, Windows 11 will reject older drivers at times. The link you shared isn't a driver update. It's a discontinued replacement for Optane users. Sure, it will work, but for how long? It doesn't give me the features IRST does.

I would bear in mind that the #1 reason for Intel dropping Optane, IRST, TBMT, and so many other fine Intel features is TPM2. Here is my plan for the fix: Install Windows 7 on a leetle tiny SSD. Install the ASUS IRST driver. It will work. It always does until the updates kill it. Uninstall the all the drivers that connect it to the internet. When configuring Intel RAID, I will boot to this isolated OS. I will also be able to do other things with it and I will likely be in better control of my hardware. No TPM, no static.

Scannerman · Jul 26, 2023

spapakons said:
If you read the message carefully, it prompts you to download the more appropriate driver from your computer or motherboard manufacturer. Have you? Also you can try the latest generic Intel driver, see link in my previous post.

Yup. Tried that. Have you seen this?

End-Of-Life (EOL) Announcement for the Intel® Rapid Storage...

Intel® RST and Intel® Optane™ Memory applications have reached EOL and won’t be updated. A new application will replace both for newer Intel RST® driver versions.

www.intel.com

Windows 12 ! Already....

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