Windows 12 ! Already....

Scannerman · Jul 19, 2023

spapakons said:
Most motherboards have the original BIOS they came with because the owner never updated it. Downloading the latest BIOS, no matter how old, and installing it fixes bugs and improves stability and compatibility. So it is not pointless to update the BIOS on an old motherboard, unless it is over 15 years old and it won't make any difference in compatibility and performance. That kind of old BIOS should require the floppy disk method in DOS environment and it is a bit of a hassle to update. Not worth the effort if your system works properly. Newer systems with Windows flash tools are much easier to update and it doesn't harm to do it.

There is always a risk (however minimal) of bricking your system board with a BIOS update. Stuff happens. The risk can be further minimized if your system board is powered via a UPS. The odds of a power outage in the middle of a BIOS flash might be low but with a correct installation of a UPS it won't matter. As far as I know my BIOS is up to date. I'm the original owner of this system board. This platform is technically non-compliant with Windows 11 and I rather doubt that ASUS has any intention of changing that. In fact, I've been to their website and support for this system board, purchased in 2017, is done. The system is six years old. I have no intention of putting Windows 10 on it either.

My point is, Windows 11 does NOT have all the older drivers covered.

spapakons · Jul 20, 2023

That's why you don't rely on Windows Update abd you manually download latest drivers for earlier Windows versions (if there are no Windows 10/11 drivers). As I have stressed many times, installing the official manufacturer drivers also improves performance while generic drivers from Windows Update make the device work without maximizing performance or even giving the user access to all the device features and configuration. For a example a generic driver makes your printer work but you cannot select any quality apart from draft or normal. You cannot select any special paper type. Installing manufacturer drivers you can fine tune quality and select from a dozen of paper types. The same goes for most devices. I am not satisfied to make the device work, I want to get the most out of it, so I prefer to do the extra effort and download the official drivers.

Scannerman · Jul 20, 2023

I suspect Win 7 drivers don't work with this because it's an Intel thing. I'm guessing it comes with the chip set. I'm not so sure I want to try running that on Win 11. I suspect Intel wouldn't even let anyone do this but lately Intel's been doing some pretty funky stuff so...

Maybe??

I like getting my drivers from the manufacturer. There have been times when Asus has been asleep at the wheel with Intel stuff. In such cases Intel will warn the user to go to Asus for the driver and consequently the user is left hanging. For example, this was a common issue with IRST and X99 system boards for years. It's also one of many reasons why I stopped buying brand new system boards from Asus. Another company that got so fat it decided to sit on its laurels and damage them beyond recognition. As it stands I can't even get old drivers from them anymore. Here's what they give me:

spapakons · Jul 20, 2023

Yes, their site is down. It will probably return. Most if the times Intel drivers work just fine. In rare cases the manufacturer has customized the device so as to need his own custom drivers. Also it is a known issue that Intel graphics drivers for Windows 7 don't work on higher Windows versions because they are locked by Intel. But that doesn't necessarily apply to other devices. I would download the Windows 7 driver and test it in Windows 11.

Scannerman · Jul 20, 2023

spapakons said:
I would download the Windows 7 driver and test it in Windows 11.

I'm quite certain I already attempted this. I've also tried numerous methods with MoKiChU and I dare say I think he knows more about drivers than both of us do. Not all older drivers work in Windows 11. Some do, some don't. The X99-E series of system boards are a bit niche. I'm guessing that perhaps less than 2% of Intel system board end users bother with extended ATX boards these days. Given the age of my system and the fact that yes, we are talking about custom drivers for EATX compliments of Asus, I'm not holding my breath.

I love my system. It provides pretty much all I need in a PC and then some. If it has to be a 7-11 Rouge computer then so be it. My greater concern will be trying to figure out a way to keep Linux on the thing seeing how Secure Boot and TPM2 are such a big deal for Win 11. I don't want to have to keep turning off Secure Boot in the BIOS simply to use Linux just because Windoze wants to rule the roost to the exclusion of "other OS". I find this particularly annoying.

Do I really need TBMT 3 to work in Win 11? Probably not. My CPU runs at a steady 4.1 GHz full bore and stable. That's a noble clock speed for this chip. Turbo boost works fine in Win 7. Now if only I could stop Microsoft from assassinating my Linux every month. The old methods don't seem to work anymore.

spapakons · Jul 20, 2023

You could install Linux in a virtual machine in Windows. You shouldn't see any noticeable performance difference when running Linux natively. Plus you can run both OSes in parallel and copy-paste data between the two.

Scannerman · Jul 20, 2023

spapakons said:
You could install Linux in a virtual machine in Windows. You shouldn't see any noticeable performance difference when running Linux natively. Plus you can run both OSes in parallel and copy-paste data between the two.

That is a thought. Although VMs are not my area of expertise I have used them before with varying degrees of success. It isn't as though I'll have any shortage of RAM for this so I'll give it some consideration.

Intel® Processor Identification Utility.png

Here it is, directly from Intel: My CPU speed is fine despite the fact that TBMT 3 won't work in Win 11. Probably not the best thing in the way of power management, but I suppose one can't have it all.

spapakons · Jul 21, 2023

You can also confirm that with CPU-Z and other utilities. If your CPU indeed runs at turbo speed, then it's OK. It is preferable to run always at turbo speed without controlling it than run always at base speed without being able to do anything about it. Unless you are on a laptop that decreases battery duration and generates more heat. For a desktop I would not mind running always at turbo speed. It feels like you have overclocked or replaced the CPU, no bad.

Scannerman · Jul 21, 2023

TBH this CPU is indeed overclocked. I OC'd it years ago and it has shown little to no stability issues from the day I did so (after the warranty on the chip expired). I rather doubt there is a BIOS update waiting for me but I'll check to see if ASUS has their stuff together yet as the page I needed was not accessible on the site. I did try updating my chip set via SNAPPY on the Win 7 side and was greeted with a rather unpleasant surprise. I'm not accustomed to seeing BSODs on this rig. Even my wife was startled. So uh... yeah. Gonna scratch that lol. It took a bit to put things back in order. For a while there disk management was listing external mechanical USB drives ahead of drives with operating systems on them (NVMe drives etc.) Anything PCIe had to take a back seat to USB external mechanical drives. :winkt:

Never saw anything like it before.

I had to check my UEFI (BIOS) to see if anything had changed in the boot order but nope... Disk Management just liked to list the slowest drives first lol. Of course, this was on Win 7. I have no clue what I messed up there. While I was tip-toeing through memory lane in UEFI I thought I'd be nostalgic and sentimental. I checked to see if Turbo Boost was enabled and yes, it was. All settings associated with it were also enabled. This PC is running with the throttle wide open.

Incidentally, I'm typing this on my Windows 7 and posting it right now.

Windows 8.1 went into convulsions and catastrophically self-destructed shortly after support for it ended. Good riddance.

.

spapakons · Jul 21, 2023

Scannerman said:
Windows 8.1 went into convulsions and catastrophically self-destructed shortly after support for it ended. Good riddance.

Coincidence? I don't think so... Others have reported the same think after Windows 8.1 EOL. Maybe Microsoft found a trick to force us upgrade to Windows 10 or 11!

Scannerman · Jul 21, 2023

spapakons said:
Coincidence? I don't think so... Others have reported the same think after Windows 8.1 EOL. Maybe Microsoft found a trick to force us upgrade to Windows 10 or 11!

Well, my tin foil hat isn't far away but if that were true.. wait a minute. Yeah, I had to rescue 8.1 on my wife's PC after that, and also two of my daughter's PCs, but I did get it running again on those PCs. Not that they really care. They're having a great time on Win 10 and Linux. At least they can run multi-boot with Linux on their Legacy systems sporting an actual BIOS without issue. Even rescuing 8.1 was so much easier on those old PCs. Hmmm... Dons tin foil hat

spapakons · Jul 21, 2023

Of course you can clean install Windows 8.1 again, but I would rather not have to, especially if that means spending hours to take a full backup of my data and reinstall and reconfigure every single application from scratch! If I would have to go though all that trouble I would probably abandon 8.1 and go for 10 or 11 instead. I can make them look and behave exactly how I want them to, so why not. I can even restore deprecated features such as Windows gadgets, classic games, Windows Media Center and many more. I could even load IE 11 in Windows 11 just for fun. Yes, it can be done no matter it is very well hidden.

TechnoMage2021 · Jul 21, 2023

I don't get it! I have six laptops, that all have Windows 8.1/Pro/32 running quite happily on them. As soon as 8.1 was installed, the MS updates were turned OFF, so they could never be corrupted by MS BS.
Sounds like someone hasn't learned their lessons yet!

Scannerman · Jul 22, 2023

TechnoMage2021 said:
I don't get it! I have six laptops, that all have Windows 8.1/Pro/32 running quite happily on them. As soon as 8.1 was installed, the MS updates were turned OFF, so they could never be corrupted by MS BS.
Sounds like someone hasn't learned their lessons yet!

No, we Windows fans have not yet learned that Windows can't be trusted. Furthermore, we Windows fans have not really understood what a TPM actually means. It isn't about having a platform the end user can trust. It's about having a platform the Consortium can trust to Manipulate the user. I'd like to take credit for making that statement, but I think it belongs to some fellow who's big on Linux. TPM is not about the security of the end user but that's the story we're being fed. The average end user is going to want to be compliant. The average user is going to want their PC to work with their favourite aps, programs, software, hardware, whatever have you. When their Windows OS is telling them it's time to update they are going to cooperate. If they don't cooperate it's no skin off Microsoft's back. If their toys don't work right anymore TUFF. It's a really good deal for Microsoft if you just shut off your updates. You can't hold them liable for anything anyway so why not just shut them off?

Some of us believe that keeping our operating systems updated and current is a good idea. I think that's partly true. Sadly, it's about as true as it is false. Many updates (so-called) are really mess-you-updates. So I don't lecture people who shut them off once they feel that they have everything they need. That aside, a hack is a hack, is a hack. Everything has consequences. I'm with Jodie on this view.

Scannerman · Jul 22, 2023

spapakons said:
Of course you can clean install Windows 8.1 again, but I would rather not have to, especially if that means spending hours to take a full backup of my data and reinstall and reconfigure every single application from scratch! If I would have to go though all that trouble I would probably abandon 8.1 and go for 10 or 11 instead. I can make them look and behave exactly how I want them to, so why not. I can even restore deprecated features such as Windows gadgets, classic games, Windows Media Center and many more. I could even load IE 11 in Windows 11 just for fun. Yes, it can be done no matter it is very well hidden.

Yup. I won back 8.1 for my daughters and my wife but it was just one of those "because I can" things. To be completely honest, I didn't even bother with my two eldest daughters to get back their 8.1 since they don't even need it. (I have four daughters.) I used my 8.1 activation key to upgrade to 11. This was probably a waste of a key, but at least I tried to stay as legit as possible. My daughters all like Windows 10. I don't like Win 10 because I have to perform so much surgery on it just to neuter all the malware that comes standard with the whole Windoze 10 key logger package. But hey, to each their own. Some folks are comfortable with this. I'm really not.

So yeah. Good riddance to Win 8.1. I rather doubt Microsoft will ever make a real, structured operating system (with all the tools included) like they did with Windows 7 Ultimate again. So far, the framework on these later operating systems is looking pretty flimsy. Like maybe they're using some cheap metal alloy or, perhaps a plastic framework that will be flexible for now, but over time goes brittle and starts falling apart just like Win 8.1 did. Clearly obsoletion is the name of the game. I'm really too old and discouraged to care anymore. Before long it will be TPM3 and a partridge in a pear tree. People will be lining up at the doors to throw out the old and get with the new. I won't be joining them.

spapakons · Jul 22, 2023

At least Windows 11 and hopefully 12 can be hacked and work on old hardware and are backwards compatible with old peripherals, old drivers, old applications and old games. To install a new Mac OS version on an old unsupported Mac is much harder and not guaranteed to work in every model. Also you forget about your old peripherals, old applications and games as they don't work on newer versions of Mac OS. We should be grateful.

Scannerman · Jul 22, 2023

I might consider being grateful when I pay for an operating system that doesn't spy on me, try to sell me something, respects my data, doesn't try to hijack my hardware, allows me to multi-boot without forcing out other operating systems, and doesn't need to be hacked in order to function correctly. Oh wait, Linux provides this and it's free! :) Too bad I can't run all the programs I like on Linux :::sigh::: Can't have it all.

Jodie makes a valid point in that clip I shared. We shouldn't have to hack the OS to make it function the way we need it to work. We shouldn't have to smash out a window just because a door is locked. We should have all the keys to the doors. If we paid for the operating system we should also be able to decide which windows should be opened, which ones we should lock, and which windows should never ever appear.

spapakons · Jul 22, 2023

Just the usual exaggerations of Linux fans. Most "spying" services can be disabled with a suitable utility such as Winaero Tweaker or O&O Shutup for Windows 10 (it also works in Windows 11). Besides if you don't have something to hide why care? Linux may install easily but needs a hack for anything else. I hate when I want to install an application or configure something and I have to use the terminal like we are back to '80s! Hello! We are in 2023 and everything must be done in GUI, or even with voice commands. The command prompt should be reserved only for experts, not be necessary for all. I don't care how powerful and versatile the command prompt is. I want a GUI and wizards for all functions, much like Windows. No wonder why most don't like Linux and why it has a small enthusiast user base. I guess some never learn. Let alone the small compatibility with hardware and small choice of applications. If you buy any device it is sure to work in some version of Windows. If you have Linux you cannot just buy a device, you have to check its hardware has Linux drivers first. I hate that because only older devices or the expensive brands have Linux drivers.

Scannerman · Jul 23, 2023

Scannerman · Jul 23, 2023

spapakons said:
Just the usual exaggerations of Linux fans. Most "spying" services can be disabled with a suitable utility such as Winaero Tweaker or O&O Shutup for Windows 10 (it also works in Windows 11). Besides if you don't have something to hide why care? Linux may install easily but needs a hack for anything else. I hate when I want to install an application or configure something and I have to use the terminal like we are back to '80s! Hello! We are in 2023 and everything must be done in GUI, or even with voice commands. The command prompt should be reserved only for experts, not be necessary for all. I don't care how powerful and versatile the command prompt is. I want a GUI and wizards for all functions, much like Windows. No wonder why most don't like Linux and why it has a small enthusiast user base. I guess some never learn. Let alone the small compatibility with hardware and small choice of applications. If you buy any device it is sure to work in some version of Windows. If you have Linux you cannot just buy a device, you have to check its hardware has Linux drivers first. I hate that because only older devices or the expensive brands have Linux drivers.

I care because privacy is a bigger deal than most people realize. TPM is a bad idea, not because it is a potentially effective security device, but because it's a CONSISTENT FAILURE and it's not very user friendly. Jody is a Windows user. He pokes a lot of fun at Linux too. To just write off a guy's point of view simply because he might be a "Linux fan" is quite a slight.

Myself, I try to stay objective. Linux has many good features and so does Windows. I poke fun at both operating systems all the time. I don't write them off. (Although many times I've been tempted to do this with Windoze.) Sadly, I've been at the wrong end of TPM and clearly Jody has a point. When the only OS you can install on your PC is Windows because that's all your hardware will let you install it's time to find new hardware. (OR "other" hardware.) When Windows makes it so that you have to install their OS to the exclusion of all others in order to use it that's what we called "dirty pool" back in the day.

Corporate monopolies are dangerous things. They kill free enterprise and they kill the spirit of capitalism because they kill the competition. They put people back into a feudal system and destroy liberty. Checks and balances are necessary. That's why we need competition in an open and free Society. To say that you have nothing to concern yourself with if you have nothing to hide is an extremest view. Herr Goebels pretty much said the same thing. This is not the sort of propaganda that thinking people need to hear. Edward Snowden isn't in Russia because he thought it might be a nice place to live.

Unless you are a big fan of Klaus Schwab you will appreciate the right to privacy and the private ownership of property. Owning your own mind, your own feelings, your own stuff, and your own space, is vital to your mental and physical health. It isn't merely about having something to hide, although sometimes having such is a good thing. It's about liberty and autonomy, having your own identity. It's about being your own person instead of becoming the property of someone else.

Seriously. If privacy isn't important then why on earth is all this "security" stuff such a big deal? Microsoft should just drop all it's security features along with TPM if that is the case. Myself, I think they should drop TPM and come up with something more user friendly and efficient. The whole Famdamlee of the present day Consortium Syndicate should do likewise. We need to keep our options.

OF COURSE.... This is only my personal opinion, but since you expressed yours I thought I'd share my own.

cheers!