Windows 12 ! Already....

johnlgalt · Jun 24, 2023

Side note - my last case was the TT Level 10 GT - those hot swap bays were priceless.

Scannerman · Jun 24, 2023

johnlgalt said:
I disagree with the whole "This will cause eWaste".

For one thing, older PCs are routinely refurbished and used in a variety of places, and for the second thing, the increase in eWaste is due to humans deciding to upgrade more often, and having more devices, than they used to.

30 years ago, pagers were prevalent, cell phones almost non existent, and majority of people didn't have a desktop and a laptop.

Today?

I have a desktop I built, a Laptop I bought, 2 cell phones, a tablet, 4 desktop monitors, a TV downstairs and another upstairs, a smart watch, 3 sets of wireless IEMs plus 1 OTE set, 2 capture cards, a controller, and much much more. And that is just me. Now analyze how many devices a family of four collectively owns.

30 years ago, I was 22, and I had exactly 1 laptop and one pager.

Pretend all you want, but we are buying more devices, and that is how we are getting more waste - not because of irreconcilable differences of a new OS that won't work on older hardware.That is pure rubbish.

Good for you.

Windows 10 works better than Windows 11 in some aspects. In spite of that I'm running 11. Whatever comes out next is what I will probably be running when it comes out.

Just because you don't care doesn't mean the rest of us don't.

Then you just haven't been paying attention. I've been to the transfer stations and I've seen the landfills. You contradict yourself. How is humans deciding to "upgrade" via replacement (because their PC is no longer supported) not a factor?? You said it yourself. Those "irreconcilable differences" you're referring to are largely the reason those PCs are being tossed. No pretense there. I've seen it with my own eyes.

Scannerman · Jun 24, 2023

johnlgalt said:
Side note - my last case was the TT Level 10 GT - those hot swap bays were priceless.

I'd be lost without them. Makes working on other PCs so much easier.

spapakons · Jun 24, 2023

As long as my main PC (2nd system specs) can do my everyday stuff and the next version of Windows is free to upgrade, albeit I need to bypass compatibility check, I see no reason to buy a new one. Sure, when my son grows up he will want to play some demanding games, but I will try to introduce him in some nice casual games without much requirements. By the time we have to buy a new PC, hopefully this one will be really obsolete, that is many years later.

Scannerman · Jun 24, 2023

spapakons said:
As long as my main PC (2nd system specs) can do my everyday stuff and the next version of Windows is free to upgrade, albeit I need to bypass compatibility check, I see no reason to buy a new one. Sure, when my son grows up he will want to play some demanding games, but I will try to introduce him in some nice casual games without much requirements. By the time we have to buy a new PC, hopefully this one will be really obsolete, that is many years later.

My rule of thumb is if it isn't 20 years old yet it's still worth keeping. They can be upgraded and gifted to people less fortunate or people just learning, used as back up systems, even network attached storage if need be! There's far too much waste going on these days.

TM21 · Jun 24, 2023

Out of 12 PC's that I own, two I built myself, about 8 years ago, (and since then I've had to refurbish both of them) one little Acer One Netbook, I bought with my Obama stimulus check, and the rest I was given or found in a dumpster someplace, like out behind a computer repair shop.
I find it hilarious, when I'm given a PC or laptop and I'm told it's JUNK and beyond repair, and a week later I've got it running like a new one. For 40+ years, "It's what I do!" (quote Mark Henry)

But, I'm too old to chase women, hang out in Biker Bars or pool halls, so I sit at home and play with my 'puters.

spapakons · Jun 24, 2023

Scannerman said:
My rule of thumb is if it isn't 20 years old yet it's still worth keeping. They can be upgraded and gifted to people less fortunate or people just learning, used as back up systems, even network attached storage if need be! There's far too much waste going on these days.

This reminds me of my second computer, Pentium 150MHz. I installed Windows 98, Office 97, some utilities and games and donated it to my neighbour that her dad could not afford buying a new one. I gave her an old 33K modem so she could connect to the internet with dialup connection. For some years it met her needs OK. I frequently hear some customer say that his laptop is too old and not worth it. Yeah right. Until I install Windows 11 on it and make it better than it was new running Windows XP or Vista. Any 64-bit dual core CPU with at least 2GB RAM is still very usable. For me obsolete is lower than Pentium 4 with 1GB RAM. Anything else is worth the effort.

Scannerman · Jun 24, 2023

spapakons said:
This reminds me of my second computer, Pentium 150MHz. I installed Windows 98, Office 97, some utilities and games and donated it to my neighbour that her dad could not afford buying a new one. I gave her an old 33K modem so she could connect to the internet with dialup connection. For some years it met her needs OK. I frequently hear some customer say that his laptop is too old and not worth it. Yeah right. Until I install Windows 11 on it and make it better than it was new running Windows XP or Vista. Any 64-bit dual core CPU with at least 2GB RAM is still very usable. For me obsolete is lower than Pentium 4 with 1GB RAM. Anything else is worth the effort.

My sentiments exactly! (Now if only TPM wasn't a mandatory requirement for Win11 things would be much better!)

spapakons · Jun 24, 2023

Who cares about TPM 2.0 or Secure Boot or UEFI? If you bypass compatibility check you can install Windows 11 on the same systems you can install Windows 8.1 or 10 64-bit, including old systems with Core 2 Duo CPU, 2GB RAM, legacy BIOS, IDE HDD. It's funny that these systems have better performance running Windows 11 than earlier with the appropriate settings and disabling all useless visual effects (transparency, animations and fades).

Scannerman · Jun 24, 2023

spapakons said:
Who cares about TPM 2.0 or Secure Boot or UEFI? If you bypass compatibility check you can install Windows 11 on the same systems you can install Windows 8.1 or 10 64-bit, including old systems with Core 2 Duo CPU, 2GB RAM, legacy BIOS, IDE HDD. It's funny that these systems have better performance running Windows 11 than earlier with the appropriate settings and disabling all useless visual effects (transparency, animations and fades).

And there it is. . . Who cares? Microsoft issues warnings, admonishing those who bypass it, we are told the system will not function correctly without it. We are told that there will be security breaches without it. Heck, even folks in the forum have warned me about running Windows 11 on non-compliant hardware. Good, respectable forum members. (I won't name any names.) Who cares?

I guess that's what bothers me the most: I have TPM 1.2 and according to Microsnot I can install Windows 11 on my unit but only at my own risk. They even offer a step-by-step procedure on how to do it! Of course, it comes with a caveat that if you follow their instructions they are by no means liable blah, blah, blah... So, yeah, they're off the hook on that count. But then. . .

Ooops! No driver support for Intel Turbo Technology. I'm stuck with an annoying triangle in device manager.
Ooops! No more support for Optane and certainly nothing old that works with Win 11.
Ooops! No more IRST on this OS.
Ooops! How come I can't multi-boot to Linux anymore unless I'm prepared to make some serious sacrifices?

And so on... And so forth...

I realize not all of this is Microsoft's fault, but I know who is behind it. A: The TPM Consortium. Of which Microsoft is a member.
Yup. Tuff titty. If I want to play with big boy hardware I have to be prepared to pay the big boy expense account. And, evidently,
watch my PC go obsolete with each new OS or "improvement" in TPM. So yeah, I'm not too impressed with this Consortium.

Meanwhile, I boot to Win 7 and everything works fine. I can even get online. No yellow "bangs" in my device manager, no obscure warning popups,
IRST is functioning, and all is well. (I have to use a different PC to boot to Linux now.) I love having enough drives to potentially fill the whole of the alphabet. I love running 128 GB of system RAM. I love owning a system board that gives me Thunderbolt and multi-RAID and so much more without having to worry about bandwidth and the PCIe to plug in more if I wish, and I love having a case that's big enough to give me easy access and work room. Windows 10 is an abomination that doesn't belong on this unit. Windows 11 is an even bigger disgrace. What's a poor boy to do?

Well, I give up. I'll just roll with the punches and play with my old hardware. I'll take my toys and go home and sulk. When I'm done doing that I'll keep on building with Linux. That's another good thing about Linux: Even if the PC is 20 years old you can install Linux on the thing and it'll run like a charm. Seems like there's hope for humanity after all. :)

James · Jun 24, 2023

johnlgalt said:
Pretend all you want, but we are buying more devices, and that is how we are getting more waste - not because of irreconcilable differences of a new OS that won't work on older hardware.That is pure rubbish.

This is why refurbished is the answer for the future. I got my phone refurbished, half the price of brand new, just 2 years old and as if it was fresh from the factory, not a mark!

Scannerman · Jun 24, 2023

James said:
This is why refurbished is the answer for the future. I got my phone refurbished, half the price of brand new, just 2 years old and as if it was fresh from the factory, not a mark!

I have to agree. I do a good deal of refurbishing myself. It's a sound economical approach and it helps keep these units out of the land fill. Of course there is the crowd who wants the latest and greatest of everything and refuses to make these concessions. Windows 11 did pose a bit of a problem for refurbishing units that didn't come with TPM2 onboard. I'd say that for the average domestic end user refurbishing is the cat's meow.

spapakons · Jun 24, 2023

I have said many times, if there are no Windows 11 drivers, use Windows 10 or 8 or 7 or even Vista 64-bit drivers. They all work in Windows 11, except the Intel graphics drivers that are locked by Intel on Windows 7 only. Even then there are some modified versions that cancel this ridiculous version check and can be installed on Windows 8/10/11.

Scannerman · Jun 24, 2023

Yup and all my issues point to Intel. Intel IRST won't work in Win 11. Intel Turbo boost technology won't work in Windows 11. This is not graphics related. There are also old school drivers for Optane but they won't work in Win 11. That aside, I do have a few hacked copies of Win 11 working on PCs that are over 10 years old and they run like greased lightning. So as long as things are kept simple there's no issue. I'm a complicated sorta guy. lol I like my options.

spapakons · Jun 25, 2023

My test laptop (see first system specs) has Turbo Boost technology and it works OK. If this is disabled in newer versions, surely some guy will find a workaround. The same is true for the other technologies.

Winuser · Jun 25, 2023

James said:
This is why refurbished is the answer for the future. I got my phone refurbished, half the price of brand new, just 2 years old and as if it was fresh from the factory, not a mark!

How is this the answer for the future? There is a difference between an old device being repaired and sold and a device being refurbished and sold. Your 2 year old phone was probably a phone that was from a warranty exchange and not something that was rescued from the trash.

James · Jun 25, 2023

Winuser said:
Your 2 year old phone was probably a phone that was from a warranty exchange and not something that was rescued from the trash.

No - how it works is that people when upgrading their devices give them into this company in the Uk who then get money for it. They are not "rescued from the trash" nor warranty exchange.

The reason I say it is the future is that using the method of refurbished saved me from buying another brand new product with brand new packaging parts etc.

I hope you understand my points now.

James · Jun 25, 2023

Winuser said:
How is this the answer for the future? There is a difference between an old device being repaired and sold and a device being refurbished and sold. Your 2 year old phone was probably a phone that was from a warranty exchange and not something that was rescued from the trash.

Read post #72 for more reasons.

spapakons · Jun 25, 2023

The point is Microsoft in cooperation with hardware manufacturers try to convince us our systems are too old by setting ridiculously high system requirements in Windows 11 and probably 12. These specs are not absolutely necessary to run Windows 11, otherwise we could not use all the features of the OS after we bypass compatibility check. We would not be able to install the OS at all in non-compliant systems. If for example Windows 11 needed certain CPU instructions only found in newer generations, it would justify Microsoft's requirements. Not even close, Windows 11 can run perfectly in unsupported computers, but they don't have the advanced security settings. When installing Windows 10 64-bit in the same computers we don't have these features anyway, that doesn't affect our OS experience. As long as we keep Windows Defender or other third party antivirus updated and we don't click on anything without reading it, we are perfectly safe using Windows 11 on unsupported computers.

Winuser · Jun 25, 2023

James said:
No - how it works is that people when upgrading their devices give them into this company in the Uk who then get money for it. They are not "rescued from the trash" nor warranty exchange.

The reason I say it is the future is that using the method of refurbished saved me from buying another brand new product with brand new packaging parts etc.

I hope you understand my points now.

I do understand what your saying. I just don't agree with it being the answer for the future. Eventually that refurbed device is going to make it to the scrap pile. Also not every refurbished devices are from a trade-ins. It's quicker and easier for companies to just replace the devices with ones that are already refurbished and ready to go. How long would you be willing to wait for your phone to be fixed? Unless you can get a loaner phone your going to want it returned as soon as possible.

Windows 12 ! Already....

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